[Adam_Messix]

As far as Continental Europe, it's Morfontaine. 

Stuart--

I appreciate your talking about the heavier soils at St. Germain, but it sure did play great when we were there.  You're right about it being flat, but the way Colt built the bunkers, he makes it appear as if it has movement that isn't there.  I wish more places would use the thicker sand that's used at St. Germain, you really have to be perfect on the contact to get the desired result.

[astavrides]

what about hamburger?

[Tom_Doak]

I've played Hamburger ... it is very good but a notch below Morfontaine and De Pan, for me.  The only hole that really stood out was the par-5 17th, and it's a very short five in the modern world.

El Saler is a different story ... Alfonso actually took me down there to play it on a day trip from Madrid.  It's a wonderful layout and very testing course, both in the width of the clearings and in the approach shots, where the greens are long and narrow and often divided laterally with a tier, so that the target is REALLY narrow.  But the conditioning was just okay (or less than okay), and it's a fairly flat site so the holes sort of blend together.  Still, it was very interesting to me to see a bit of Arana's work, and you could tell right away that he was an architect who thought differently than most.  Would be in my top 5 in Europe so far, maybe higher if they get it whipped back into shape.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Since I haven't seen some of the consensus choices such as Hague and Morfontaine, I can't say anything about "best", but I can chip in with this: if Le Touquet (La Mer) is mentioned, then there is no way that Simpson's Les Pins at Hardelot can be overlooked. While it may be less of a championship test, it is loads more fun and the architecture is nothing short of brilliant. A modern course in that area that ranks up there as well is Belle Dunes.

And while we're throwing out all rational considerations and going purely by emotion, I'll nominate Acquasanta in Rome for the top tier

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

Ulrich,

I'm glad you mentioned La Mer and Les Pins.

I played the two on the same day last September and afterwards I was amazed to learn Colt's course has traditionally been (and continues to be) rated much higher than Simpson's.

For my money Hardelot (Les Pins) was a better course and much more fun than Le Touquet (La Mer).

[Tom_Doak]

Ulrich:

Has Hardelot been thinned out in recent years?  When I saw it 20+ years ago it was almost completely choked by trees.  If they've cut a lot down, it was a really neat property underneath them.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Tom, I don't know how it looked 20+ years ago, but in my mind the place is not choked by trees. Yes, it's in a pine forest, but I found it very playable. Holes 2 + 3 may need some tree removal, perhaps 17. Other than that I'll grant you that some shots are narrow, but not more than that ;-)

Here are some of my pictures, you be the judge:

https://picasaweb.google.com/realulim/HardelotLesPins#

Ulrich

[Steve Okula]

Ulrich,

I've never been to Hardelot, and I know I shouldn't judge it from a few photos, but that place does look like it is indeed choked by trees.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ulrich:

Has Hardelot been thinned out in recent years?  When I saw it 20+ years ago it was almost completely choked by trees.  If they've cut a lot down, it was a really neat property underneath them.

Still choked with trees when I visited in 2005 anyway... Loads of potentially great holes though... Plenty of Simpson shining through...

[Scott Warren]

You drive through a few chutes, but I wouldn't sau it felt choked to me.

That's other than the 17th (par three) and the 9th, where trees have encroached down the hillside short right of the green.

Other than that, yes there are a lot of trees between holes, but the corridors felt plenty wide.

[David Harshbarger]

17 looks like a great hole.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Scott,

My mistake.  How 'bout best course in the euro region?

So now, you're including Ireland?
 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Scott,

My mistake.  How 'bout best course in the euro region?

So now, you're including Ireland?
 

Oops, I should have written Rep. of Ireland. 

[Tom_Doak]

On my visit to Hardelot it looked like all the trees were making it difficult to keep the course in reasonable shape.

Imagine that course without any trees ... just the dunes between the holes!

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

Remove all the pines from Les Pins?

Les Dunes is just down the road.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Even looking at Ulrich's photos, it's clear that the trees are still encroaching more than is ideal...

If they did something with them, the course could be talked about in the same breath as the great courses around the Paris area (short though it is)...

[Sean_A]

Man

The pix don't seem to support width of fairways.  The land looks excellent for golf though.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Having reviewed the pics I took last September (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46034.0.html) it is definitely narrower in sections than I recalled, but still quite wide in many areas.

2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 15 and 17 are to varying degrees overly tight.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, I have played zillions (ok... maybe thousands ;-) of courses that look more open, but in reality are more restricted than Les Pins. One thing is how it looks and another how it plays. The soil is fantastic, as are the greens - I don't see much of a benefit from cutting down more trees. True, it would open up the course for more aggressive play, but it is a rather short track to begin with and many of the holes are side-by-side. As it is, they are hidden from view (with the exception of a small part on the back 9) and you are playing in splendid isolation. They did clear the undergrowth, so if you're in the trees, you may be able to recover.

I don't see, for example, why a generally open course like La Mer is preferable: where Les Pins asks me to hit a straight 7 iron or end up in the trees, La Mer wants a straight fairway wood or end up in hard rough.

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Well, I have played zillions (ok... maybe thousands ;-) of courses that look more open, but in reality are more restricted than Les Pins. One thing is how it looks and another how it plays. The soil is fantastic, as are the greens - I don't see much of a benefit from cutting down more trees. True, it would open up the course for more aggressive play, but it is a rather short track to begin with and many of the holes are side-by-side. As it is, they are hidden from view (with the exception of a small part on the back 9) and you are playing in splendid isolation. They did clear the undergrowth, so if you're in the trees, you may be able to recover.

I don't see, for example, why a generally open course like La Mer is preferable: where Les Pins asks me to hit a straight 7 iron or end up in the trees, La Mer wants a straight fairway wood or end up in hard rough.

Ulrich

It might not need a wholesale clearance Ulrich but it definitely could do with some... Take for instance your photo of the approach to 6 (a straight hole so no aggressive lines)... The newish planted trees and shrubs along the left side should be cleared back to the line of pines... Aside from the foreground, you can see especially where the greenside bunker has been crowded out... Could do with more space down that side for certain... Back of the green likewise...

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ally, I think you are right with your example and I still think it's a great course that I would love to play every day ;-)

Cruden Bay could use some clearing of the heavy rough at the run-out of the seventh fairway, but I'd go back any day. Minor quibbles, really, when you have a great course. But yes, you can always improve.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Ally, I think you are right with your example and I still think it's a great course that I would love to play every day ;-)

Cruden Bay could use some clearing of the heavy rough at the run-out of the seventh fairway, but I'd go back any day. Minor quibbles, really, when you have a great course. But yes, you can always improve.

Ulrich

Ulrich

Generally I think you are right; lack of width does not often act as the dividing line between great courses and not great courses.  Off hand I can only think of one exception.  Although, there are a few other very good courses which I think I would enjoy much more if they were cleared of many trees.  I will never forget the lesson St Georges Hill taught me with width in the heathlands.  Its much more fun to walk up to a ball and hit it rather than get a burnt neck.

Ciao

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