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TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson - A Detailed Primer (now with Seaview Photos)
« Reply #125 on: December 29, 2008, 02:29:34 PM »
Mike:

In that case, what is the date of the oldest available aerial on that course? The closer you can get to the opening of the course the better (even though there are few aerials done before around the early 1920s ;) and then just compare it to Ross's architectural suggestions on his hole by hole plans.

That should tell you about what was done from Ross's plans. Again, I doubt Ross included things in his architectural recommendations that were already done.  ;)

You say Whitten said Wilson just did the routing and that's it?

I don't think so as I believe we have some letters between Piper and Oakley and Wilson that mention that Wilson was going with construction foreman Fred Pickering again at Seaview (despite his previous boozing), (I'll check those files or check with Wayne) so he must have been into construction and well past just a routing. 

If you have newspaper accounts of the course's opening IN PLAY before Ross ever got there I'd say Wilson (and a construction crew) did a whole lot more than just a routing! It sounds to me like they brought a course into play if people were playing it before Ross ever got there!  ;) ??? ::)

Are you sure you've really checked everything out on Seaview? There must be more information somewhere hiding in the woodwork!! I mean really, if this was 1914 Wilson had only been into architecture for three years max and during that time he seemed to only talk about and write about agronomy anyway! SO, wouldn't he still have to be considered a total NOVICE in architecture??

Are you sure Macdonald/Whigam or H.H. Barker weren't around somewhere at Seaview to show him what to do? How many times did that Philadelphia contingent try to diss Macdonald and refuse to give him credit for what was due him?

Really Michael, if you're going to proceed with some excercise like this the first thing you should do is check with Moriarty and MacWood to see if they think Seaview should be attributed to C.B. Macdonald!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:45:09 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson - A Detailed Primer (now with Seaview Photos)
« Reply #126 on: December 29, 2008, 05:44:48 PM »
MikeC:

Good to talk to you just now and as I said I was beginning to get concerned about where and what the specific attribution was to Wilson laying out Seaview and as I mentioned we should plug that all back in on here so people don't automatically start wondering about that and question that attribution.

As for Colt, I think that is pretty interesting and given all those coincidences and pretty perfect timelining and such I don't think it would be unreasonable at all to just mention that he very well may've gone down to Seaview around June 1913 and probably with Wilson as it seems pretty likely he must have been staying with him for their wives to get to meet and know each other like they seemingly did.

PS:
Maybe someone should pass some of this on to Ron Whitten as he might want to update or correct that 2006 article he wrote on Seaview and Wilson/Ross.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 05:46:41 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson - A Detailed Primer (now with Seaview Photos)
« Reply #127 on: December 29, 2008, 10:55:38 PM »
MikeC:

Good to talk to you just now and as I said I was beginning to get concerned about where and what the specific attribution was to Wilson laying out Seaview and as I mentioned we should plug that all back in on here so people don't automatically start wondering about that and question that attribution.

As for Colt, I think that is pretty interesting and given all those coincidences and pretty perfect timelining and such I don't think it would be unreasonable at all to just mention that he very well may've gone down to Seaview around June 1913 and probably with Wilson as it seems pretty likely he must have been staying with him for their wives to get to meet and know each other like they seemingly did.

PS:
Maybe someone should pass some of this on to Ron Whitten as he might want to update or correct that 2006 article he wrote on Seaview and Wilson/Ross.

Tom Paul,

Agreed on all counts.

I think it's very, very important to go through this exercise for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the simple fact that Seaview was/is one of the most historically important courses built at that critical juncture in the early teens.   

Stay tuned.   ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #128 on: December 29, 2008, 11:54:59 PM »
I just went back to re-read some of this thread that stretches back a bit and recall Joe Bausch's mention that a Society Page listing he came across talked about a Hugh Wilson sailing abroad in 1907 to Glasgow, Scotland.

As you might imagine, those articles only mentioned folks in higher echelons of society, which we might find to be certainly a bit snooty in our more egalitarian times, but perhaps not.

In any case, I found the manifest in question, and indeed this "Hugh Wilson" was travelling First Class with a Mrs. H. Wilson, and there was at least one other Philadelphia socialite...an "E. P. Biddle" on board.   Others with more knowledge of such things as Social Registers might recognize additional names.

At this point we don't know if this was our Hugh Wilson, or the nature of the voyage, but given what we know about his golf and sporting interests at this point it would be difficult to imagine a completely golf-celibate trip to the motherland of the game if indeed this was our man.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2008, 04:12:09 AM »
Here's an April 9, 1915 Philadelphia Inquirer report of the match involving Ouimet, Reid, Geist, and Hugh Wilson:



Mike, we need to check out the Philadelphia Record, Philadelphia Press, the Evening Public Ledger, etc in late 1914 and early 1915 for stuff about Seaview.  Another gathering at the Free Library is in order!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2008, 07:09:09 AM »
Joe,

Perhaps this weekend or next?   

We should go back into the spring of 1913, at least, to see what might have been reported re: HS Colt's visit to Merion and Seaview.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2008, 10:27:34 AM »
Joe and Mike:

The spring and summer of 1913 would be the time to start looking for the beginning (laying out) of Seaview. Somebody mentioned Colt went to Seaview around May/June of 1913 because I've seen it. It may've been Tillinghast.

E. Biddle of Philly was Edward Biddle, the Biddle that first married into the Drexel family. His wife Emily Drexel (A.J. Drexel's daughter) was something of a tomboy as well as a fairly accomplished musician and she died quite young under some very odd circumstances. Apparently one of her friends questioned her strength and she proceeded to attempt to lift a grand piano and unfortunately it ended up killing her.

At that point A.J. who really didn't like his son-in-law Edward Biddle told him that no gentleman would try to claim his young wife's wealth and so AJ. cut the guy out of the family but agreed to take his children and take care of them and eventually make them rich. One of those children of Edward and Emily was Anthony Drexel Biddle who was the guy the book, Broadway play and eventually Disney movie "The Happiest Millionaire" was done about. He was quite a guy and a real eccentric. Among other things he taught Heavyweight boxing champion Gene Tunney how to box.

I don't believe they were golfers but most of the rest of their family certainly was and it would be pretty unusual if Hugh Wilson did not basically know them all. Some of them were the originators of Philly CC and on its first team in the late 1890s----eg Louis , Clarence and Lynnford Biddle. My own grandmother was a Biddle but I can't tell you at the moment which of them was her father. She married a man by the name of A.J. Drexel Paul. His father, James W. Paul, owned Woodcrest (presently Cabrini College) and he owned the land St. Davids GC is on. He was given this land by his father-in-law, A.J. Drexel who essentially created and named the town of Wayne (previously Louella) with his business partner George Childs the publisher of the Philadelphia Ledger.

But to truly understand the development of this entire area, particularly the app 40,000 acre part that has come to be known as the "Main Line" with its land planning, clubs and golf courses one needs to follow the creation and evolution of the Pennsylvania Railroad which through the involvement and financing of various of these people named including the firms of E.W. Clark and J.P. Morgan and Drexel became not only the most powerful railroad in America but apparently at one point the largest capitalization of any corporation in the world.

It's reach and influence was enormous and almost wherever you look in early golf in this area it was there and essentially controlled things in one way or another. I guess one might say it was something of an interwinning monopoly but if one follows its history it's pretty easy to see how it really was a win, win, win, win..... situation for this area and just about everything that went on around here in the world of finance, transportation (it created Montgomery Ave, the Lancaster Pike and the rail lines) mercantilism, industrialism, suburban residential development etc. All in the Pennsylvania Railroad company's own rail lines covered 30,000-40,000 miles and then it began to buy up other American rail companies and "roads". By 1970 it went down the tubes in one of the largest American bankruptcies on record to that time and basically morphed into a governemnt controlled rail complex we now know as Amtrak.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 10:44:33 AM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2008, 01:16:37 PM »
Joe,

Perhaps this weekend or next?   

We should go back into the spring of 1913, at least, to see what might have been reported re: HS Colt's visit to Merion and Seaview.

This or next Saturday should work for me. 

The invite is again open to any of the Philly GCA'ers that perhaps have a date or tourney to search for on microfilm.  I'll show you the ropes if you wish.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2008, 02:34:46 PM »
Joe,

I'd suggest you plan for a week from Saturday... It will give you Philly guys something to do as the Iggles should be out of the playoffs after this one!  ;D

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2008, 03:16:23 PM »
Joe/Mike,
Once the NFL playoffs are done, I'll definitely be there to help research. We should also do a roadtrip to Seaview.  I'm beginning to get golf withdawal.




Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2008, 04:24:17 PM »
Joe/Mike,
Once the NFL playoffs are done, I'll definitely be there to help research. We should also do a roadtrip to Seaview.  I'm beginning to get golf withdawal.


Golf withdrawal?!  Did they close French Creek for the season?!

Today was the first day in 5 that I did not play.   Kyle and I did a pretty neat mostly muni tour the last four days:  Cobb's Creek, Jeffersonville, Pitman, and Island Green.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2008, 07:33:24 PM »
Joe - nah, FC is wide open!  I've just been working a lot and doing the Christmas fun stuff.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #137 on: December 30, 2008, 07:41:35 PM »
Joe,

I'd suggest you plan for a week from Saturday... It will give you Philly guys something to do as the Iggles should be out of the playoffs after this one!  ;D

The odds of the Iggles losing at the Vikes this weekend are approximately the same as Far and Sure being HH Cornish.

;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson - An Ongoing Investigative Journey
« Reply #138 on: December 30, 2008, 10:24:45 PM »
Has anyone ever come across this one before?  In all of our discussions I can't recall ever seeing it.

In the February 1916 issue of American Golfer, AW Tillinghast writing as "Hazard" wrote the following;

"Certainly a reference to the Merion Course over which the championship of 1916 will be played, must be of interest. The course was opened in 1912, and the plans were decided upon only after a critical review of the great courses in Great Britain and America."

"It was the first of the two eighteen hole courses at Merion, the West Course being opened several years later. The distances are admirable and altogether Merion presents a good test of golf, but in view of the fact that the National title is to be decided there next September, a number of hazards will be introduced to bring the play closer to championship demands."

"Many of the hazards are natural, and a creek which winds through the tract is encountered frequently.  Probably the most interesting section is found at the very end of the round; certainly the last three holes are the most spectacular , for a large stone quarry has been converted to a hazard of immense proportions."

"The sixteenth hole finds it immediately in front of the green, and it must be carried by a courageous well hit second. The seventeenth calls for a tee shot to the green, immediately over the excavation and again it has to be carried in driving for the home hole."

"Other holes present the characteristics of the famous Redan and the Alps of Prestwick. Ben Sayers, the wellknown professional of North Berwick, spends a great deal of time at Merion, where his son George is engaged, and he declares that the course is thoroughly good."

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike -

It's remarkable how many architects crossed paths at the Ivies just after the turn of the century. Wilson would have crossed paths with Chandler Egan who graduated from Harvard in '04. Egan won the '02 collegiate title. I would assume Wilson played in that tournament too. Myopia was the Harvard home course, though they played other courses in the area. Sometime in the '40's, the team started playing more at The Country Club. I suspect because it was so much closer to campus.

Bob

What did this change? " Myopia was the Harvard home course, though they played other courses in the area. Sometime in the '40's, the team started playing more at The Country Club."