[Lou_Duran]

Brent - the problem for me is that I can shoot under par anywhere as Jim so kindly pointed out. So I can excel at my score. I think the 67 I shot earlier in the day is a pseudo course record. I have had three of those. It's hard to get away from the socre mentality when that is possible. And, because I still play a lot of tournament golf.

I think it says something about the architecture and the "rules" at Ballyneal that I forgot about score. It's never happened anywhere else - TOC, PV, Riviera, Pinehurst, etc. I've played a lot of inspiring places.

What a problem to have!  And can there be a better testimonial for a golf course?

I too am a "card and pencil" type.  It is an affliction rather than a blessing; a constant reminder of how qradually, but continuosly my game has deteriorated.  Unfortunately, it is my nature to measure, compare, and evaluate things, and I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I stepped on the course sans my pen and a card (typically two, as I transcribe my scores and notes a day or so after most rounds).  It is a great approach for remembering courses that I might only play a couple of times, but such level of introspection surely is not good for the psyche.  Too bad Dr. Katz is no longer on call.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Lou,

I forgive you for slowing down hords of pick up and hurry up players over the years.  Do you think it is selfish of you to care what you shoot?

[Andy Hodson]

John,

I was referring to a four ball match, where I may not have even needed to finish the hole since my partner may have made the winning score for the team. To me there is nothing better than a great four ball match  where each player is playing for his side more than for his own score. Play goes faster, tempers flare less, and it seems there is more "comraderie".

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - I'm guessing that your post #23 is one of the best compliments TD has ever recieved.

Lou - you're a good man for sticking it out under the circumstances.  I too am a dedicated card and pencil type -- but that is only because I live under the illusion/hope that my scores will come down over the next couple of years, reflective of my improved ball striking and play.  

(I think we're about the same age and the only difference is that I only took up the game 10 years ago and have played very little golf in my life, and so have convinced myself that I still have room and time enough to improve before the inevitable decline sets in!)

Don't let the likes of JK or Shivas throw you; they have been playing golf forever, and have ditched the card and pencil only when,  and at precisely the moment, they found that their average scores were going up....coincidentally I'm sure  

I stick with Jim Sullivan on this one: a great player who can experience and discuss the beauty and mystery and charm of wonderful golf courses as well as anyone here, but who at the same time can remain committed to shooting -- and recording -- the best score he possibly can.  

[Jud_T]

We've had this discussion before.  If I recall correctly a lot of the blame went to the USGA handicapping system as everyone has to post a score for every round, and every medal score, or match-play equivalent, affects one's handicap.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I was referring to a four ball match, where I may not have even needed to finish the hole since my partner may have made the winning score for the team. To me there is nothing better than a great four ball match  where each player is playing for his side more than for his own score. Play goes faster, tempers flare less, and it seems there is more "comraderie".

Sure, we just usually play high ball/low ball so both scores matter.  Even in best ball it is nice to know where both opponents stand.  I have seen a double digit score win low ball on a very penal hole.  Nothing wrong with telling a prick you had an X.

[astavrides]

So...is there any thing else at Ballyneal other than what I have mentioned that seems to make more of us able to forget our score? philosophy.
[/quote]

no tee markers and no slope and rating.  it's obvious to me.  surprised no one has mentioned it.

i don't think that is a good thing, although i love the course otherwise.

[Pete Lavallee]

So...is there any thing else at Ballyneal other than what I have mentioned that seems to make more of us able to forget our score? And, since those of us that have had that happen at Ballyneal seemed to love that it did happen, wouldn't golf be better if other courses embraced the things at Ballyneal that make it happen? Wouldn't this accomplish what we've been talking about in the learn from skiing thread and what the PGA and USGA are trying to do with the play it forward campaign? Instead of this other stuff maybe we should just adopt the Ballyneal philosophy.

Good question. Of course Alex is right, abandon the USGA's "every score is sacred" policy. Copy the British system and only count Medal play competition scores towards one's handicap.

But the real question is can every course inspire this philosophy. Steve, since I know you've played there, could Torrey South, the ultimate test of the modern game, be more fun by not recording your score and jumping around on the tee boxes?

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't let the likes of JK or Shivas throw you; they have been playing golf forever, and have ditched the card and pencil only when,  and at precisely the moment, they found that their average scores were going up....coincidentally I'm sure  

The current game that I play, Vegas with multiple trash, requires that I finish every hole and post a score because we play off of handicaps.  Thanks to my Scratch irons and wedges my handicap has gone from 6 to 3 on one of the most difficult courses in the world.  Funny thing is that often when trying to win the maximum amount of cash, lowest best score is not alway the best option.  

Shivas has also just entered the club world of needing a handicap.  It is a pain in the ass but worth it if you love the action of a good bet or the fun of honest club competition.  Yes, there can be honest club competition.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've heard for years from the pick up and hurry up crowd how the card and pencil guys are hurting the game.  I would like to hear how the Guys and Dolls crowd hurt the game.

For one, the people who don't try and keep 15 to 24 handicaps are always the first to wreck a good member/guest.  Funny how suddenly they can par half the holes or make three birdies when they "care".  Hate those people.

[Kalen Braley]

I can see what Steve was talking about with there not being any tee markers or formal slope and rating.

I think it does encourage people just to try stuff and not get stuck in the mentality of, I need to play the hole from this defined starting point.  On the 7th hole, we moved up closer to have a more realistic chance at driving the green and that was fun stuff.

My favorite part of Ballyneal was how the routing just seemed to meander to and from thru the dunes.  Often times it felt more like an adventure-some walk with golf mixed in, as opposed to playing golf and moving from one hole to the next.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

I forgive you for slowing down hords of pick up and hurry up players over the years.  Do you think it is selfish of you to care what you shoot?

Thank you John.  Yes it is.  As others have noted, I am greedy and selfish.  Not very smart either, perhaps giving me the justification for having to jot things down.  I envy guys like Matt Ward who seem to have photographic memories of golf course features and how they played each hole.

RE: the handicap system, isn't that basically a red herring (sp) given the stroke adjustment rules?  When figuring my handicap, any score above double bogie is adjusted down.

PP- I talk occasionally with Bob Huntley, a man who serves as a model for me in many ways, including how he handles playing golf in advancing age.  Though he knows that he will never approach what he once was able to shoot on a bad day, Bob is always looking to improve his game.  Like me, he took up golf as an adult after having played competitively in several sports (he at a much higher level).  Both of us became low single-digit players rather quickly; our memories and how we think of ourselves are much younger than our bodies.

When Bob laments about losing much of his distance or complains about his putrid putting, I am quick to offer encouragement and mostly useless suggestions.  It is not lost on me that I am at the same time talking to myself.  I have an idea of what lies ahead, but also know that there are a number of things I can do to improve the outcomes.  Punching keystrokes here is not among them, but keeping my stats may be- perhaps pointing to where I should be spending my time to get a bigger bang for my efforts.  Best of luck.  

[Jud_T]

Does Ballyneal have any member tournaments?  If so, what's the format?

[Dan King]

I was a card and pencil guy. I mainly blame the USGA who insist everyone should post a score even if not playing medal. It's a crazy system.

After a few trips to Scotland I became aware of how much better the game is there -- much of it due to the lack of card and pencil mentality with many locals (not all locals.) They never had a scorecard but could easily tell you the status of the match.  A few times I played with locals who felt like they had really good medal scores during their match. They could easily recall each hole and come up with a number at the end of the round.

I rarely keep score anymore. I can tell you if I'm having a good round, bad round or mediocre round without the need of specific digit to verify. It is very freeing not worrying about the number at the end of each hole -- and I also can pickup my ball when I'm having a bad hole without any feeling of guilt.

Now if playing a medal round I prefer someone else in the group keeps my score. A really don't like having a card or a pencil on me while I play golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

Dream golf is simply golf played on another course. We chip from glass tables onto moving stairways; we swing in a straightjacket, through masses of cobweb, and awaken not with any sense of unjust hazard but only with a regret that the round can never be completed, and that one of our phantasmal companions has kept the scorecard.
 --John Updike

[Sean_A]

I think Brent has it about right.  I don't live under any illusion of being a good golfer so score cannot be my be all and end all.  Sorry, breaking 80 to win a medal doesn't mean much to me when I know the best players average less than 72 on far tougher courses than I play.  That said, I still like a bit of competition only I want it to be quick aand painless.  It seems a farce to me to play with a pencil in my hand.  Ironically, I play more pencil golf these days (maybe 10ish games a year) than at anytime since high school.  However, I can understand if folks are into that sort of thing, but I figure eventually they will all relent - at least somewhat.  Why?  Because its either that, accept gracefully that the game is passing you by (maybe one of the hardest things in life to do) or give the game up.  

Matchplay is really very different from medal even at its core.  I know guys say the goal is to score the best one can, but in truth, one is only trying to beat the guy next to him.  Sometimes, that means not trying to score the best you can - merely a score good enough to win.  This is why its so frustrating to still get caught out sometimes chasing a score rather than winning a hole.  I was guilty of this on the 10th at Deal this past weekend and it was by far the most pissed off I was regardless of the other poor shots I played.  Regardless of the format, I still know if I am playing well relative to my cap and I can tell what sort of game I am having in terms of effectiveness for medal or match.

Ciao

[Terry Lavin]

I don't think about score, either.  Who needs a scorecard or a pencil, when you have a fertile imagination and the blank canvas of the golf course that the architect has laid out for you?  Keeping score, after all, is a foolish consistency, the hobgoblin of small golfing minds!  Heck, when I hit the first ball on a hole, I don't even care if I am standing on the tee.  Why bother aiming for the fairway of the hole you're playing, when you can just hit it anywhere?  I often find myself switching greens, having become bored with playing the hole the way it is laid out.  Sometimes, I start a hole by putting and then tee off from the green.

But then, I wake up and realize that golf is a game with some basic rules and I dismiss all of the foolishness listed above.

[Richard Choi]

I am happy to admit that Ballyneal also change my view point on scores forever as well.

Until my first trip to Ballyneal, I was very aware of my scores (I am an engineer by trade).  In fact, I use detail notations to indicate fairways hit, GIR, type of shot I hit, directions of the miss, etc.

That all went out the window at Ballyneal.

I think the fact that the course really encourages "creating your own course" with no tee markers and multiple teeing grounds (the ones that even TD didn't think of) inevitably leads to this this outcome. I really love the fact that I am on a "journey" instead of going for a specific target (score).

What is interesting (to me, at least) is that this feeling has lasted beyond Ballyneal. I don't care about the scores as much as I used to. Sometimes, I am perfectly happy just to not keep score at all, which was unthinkable when I was a Ballyneal virgin.

It really is a special place...

[Peter Pallotta]

Terry - ha, ha; good one.

I've not been to BN.  From pictures and readings only I stand by my oft-stated (and highly uniformed) speculation that it will reach No. 1 on a 'best of list' within our lifetimes; heck, within the next decade.

But - if I ever played there, I'd like to think that I could experience the magical journey and keep score at the same time. I say this because for many years I've been walking and chewing gum at the same time; and, as strange as it may seem, in recent years I've  been able to stand in and experience the breathtaking majesty of Nature while at the same time contemplating the theological/philosophical arguments for a Divine hand at work there.

In fact, not only would I say that you can have both the (physical) experience and the (mental) thoughts at the same time, but that both the experience and the thoughts are actually enriched by the other.

Just saying...

[Steve Kline]

But the real question is can every course inspire this philosophy. Steve, since I know you've played there, could Torrey South, the ultimate test of the modern game, be more fun by not recording your score and jumping around on the tee boxes?

The simple answer is no. The reason is most courses have very little strategy designed into them. At Torrey the green contours don't affect the angle of attack that much. At Torrey the short game options are very limited. At Torrey there isn't enough width to change driving angles or change tee locations. At Torrey the holes are sometimes too far apart and there are too many tees to just tee it in the fringe. At Torrey, I would look at moving up a box as just making the whole easier (I am almost always play from the back tees). But at Ballyneal changing the teeing location changes how the green contours affect play, the clubs I choose off the tees, the line of charm on the hole, etc.

So, I don't think Torrey would be more fun using the Ballyneal philosophy. But, part of the reason is that Torrey only seems to exist to see how low I can go, which is the modern game.

Odds are I will go back to keeping my score when I head to Pinehurst this weekend. In fact I have hard time seeing my self let go of the card and pencil mentality anywhere but Ballyneal. But that is beauty of Ballyneal.

[Travis Dewire]

Steve,

Great round! You are going back to the card/pencil next round? I agree for the better players, it is much easier, and more common to know where you stand just about all the time. But so what? Does it affect your strategy? I dont think it should. You are good, and can hit all the shots, are we really steppin on the aggressive button ater a few bogies? Or are you still just chuggin along playing your game? What do you need to know your score for, other than just keepin a small tally in your head? Will just be the same number at the end, right? I would argue that the less you pick up the card, the more consistantly you will shoot your lowest possible score on that given day. That is my philosphy, but to each their own. If you need numbers, focus on your yardage, club, yrds to front/back, width, pin etc. Those will all give you numbers to play around with and "see"

Steve, has it ever gone the other way? Surely you don't shoot under 75 every time you play, are there times where you get of to a bad start, try to force it back on track (because as a scratch, we can't be over 75), and that only makes things worse?

[Steve Kline]

It can always go both ways but I have not known where I stood in relation to par even if it is just in the back of my mind. Also it doesn't really change my strategy that much.

[Travis Dewire]

Steve,

Sorry If I come off brash. I am on the complete opposite. I believe a free mind is what elevates a player to his/her best. I might not be as good as you, but I can get it around a bit, so Im not speaking to you as an 8 handicapper.

I used to be the same way, always focused on my score. While I didn't use the card/pencil, I kept a keen track in my mind. Knew where I stood, at all times. Maybe like or unlike you, when I would go back and look at my best rounds tournament or otherwise, a few things stood out. No analytics, just hit the thing, and no over obsession of where I was in relation to par. Of course I knew where I stood, but I was more worried about just playing than my score.

Steve, you are very good. Even on a medicore day, you make a few bogies, you come around to hole 13, and its gotta take seconds for you to fire through your round in your head and know where you stand, I mean seconds. Or no you can not do this?

What benefits do you feel from knowing your score? Is it a comfort thing? What happens if its a bad day and you are 5 over through 12? What is the benefit to a card then?

Sorry If you think that I am drilling your style of play, I am not and clearly it works. Im interested in your approach that you take. Mine being totally different, we both have much we can learn from one another.

Do you read any golf psychology books at all? Steve, at your level, what needs to improve to get you to the finals of the mid am?
Also, ui like that match play is your game. O.b Keeler said of Bobby Jones, that once he learned to play old man par, rather than his opponent, in match play, he was unbeatable. Weather you know it or not, the card watching focuses your mind on the hole and its par, rather than your opponennt.

Let me know some more thoughts, if you do not mind, and as long as i have not offended you in my questioning

[Adam Clayman]

There may be one more aspect to Ballyneal that could elicit this type of mindset. That's the fact that most visitors are not hit n runners.  The fee is a day rate, and that may make someone not care about score since they know they will have another crack at it, very soon. And if you're with Jim, another and another and another.

It's an interesting psychological test to not think about the results while trying to execute the task. If a player can do that, they aren't focused on their score while they are playing the shot, but rather after the hole is complete, when they write it down. I'm convinced it helps in tournaments because it removes the brain freeze that can occur when a person thinks "OMG, I'm 3 under"

So, the card and pencil monicker is mis-used because it has different meanings, obviously. i.e. I  will never forget playing with Forest Richardson at Talking Stick. When I went to write the score down, he almost had a cow. I tried to explain to him that I keep score for my handicap, but otherwise it's not a focus. He must've thought I was some tight ass purist or something.

Terry, One correction. Golf is the sport, the tournament or "game' is the game.

[Steve Kline]

Steve, you are very good. Even on a medicore day, you make a few bogies, you come around to hole 13, and its gotta take seconds for you to fire through your round in your head and know where you stand, I mean seconds. Or no you can not do this?

What benefits do you feel from knowing your score? Is it a comfort thing? What happens if its a bad day and you are 5 over through 12? What is the benefit to a card then?

Sorry If you think that I am drilling your style of play, I am not and clearly it works. Im interested in your approach that you take. Mine being totally different, we both have much we can learn from one another.

Do you read any golf psychology books at all? Steve, at your level, what needs to improve to get you to the finals of the mid am?
Also, ui like that match play is your game. O.b Keeler said of Bobby Jones, that once he learned to play old man par, rather than his opponent, in match play, he was unbeatable. Weather you know it or not, the card watching focuses your mind on the hole and its par, rather than your opponennt.

Let me know some more thoughts, if you do not mind, and as long as i have not offended you in my questioning

No offense taken.

I don't literally use a scorecard. It's just that I can't not no my score. I always no where I stand since it is rarely a big enough number not to know in relation to par.

I don't think there is any benefit to knowing my score. I don't think there is any downside either. I'm not afraid to shoot a low score. I've shot 64 a couple of times as well as some 65s and 66s. It was very relaxing not keeping my score at the back nine at Ballyneal. But it didn't seem like I was playing "real" golf. I don't know how to describe it but it was very different, and enjoyable. But, because I play competitively it's not something I can do all the time.

I don't read any golf psychology books. The differences between me and top mid-ams are confidence and chipping and putting. I've always lacked the confidence in my game to be a really top flight player. I get nervous on shots because I don't want to embarass myself and hit some really crappy shot. It's not about shooting a bad score. It's a thought like, "I hope I don't hit this really, really fat." I mean thinking of shots that I haven't hit in a long, long time. And compared to the best mid-ams my chipping and putting is weak but more my chipping. I'm a good driver and iron player but not very long. Length isn't everything but it does help and it is one more thing I have to overcome. But when I miss greens I really struggle. That is changing this year as I have been working on my short game a couple of hours a week and it is coming. It's the first time I've practiced my chipping in at least 15 years. I just almost never practice. Of course now my putting is bad, especilly from close in. No yips. Just some sort of alignment issue as I miss a lot of putts right.

[Travis Dewire]

 I get nervous on shots because I don't want to embarass myself and hit some really crappy shot. It's not about shooting a bad score. It's a thought like, "I hope I don't hit this really, really fat."


But doesn't that reflect what your score will become? Where the round will go?


Clearly you are very confident when you get "there" - evident by all these low rounds you just told me about. That confidence can improve by letting go. I would argue that you worry about hitting a shot fat, not because you worry if you are good enough to execute the shot, because you are worried about chunking a shot and it affecting your score, negatively.

Check out Bob Rotella's Golf is Not a Game of Perfect - lots of constructive stuff for the mind when it comes to playing golf. I don't want to impose the mental side of golf on you, if that is not your cup of tea. But I think anyone would benefit from a few of the points Dr. Rotella discusses.

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