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Dan King

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2011, 03:05:31 PM »
Jamie Van Gisbergen writes:
Mr. King that all depends on the hole. I would say that no one on Earth could hit the green with every club in the bag on #7 at Pebble Beach...in contrast with say, #5 at Old Macdonald where I think it could surely be done.

I'm having trouble understand why No. 7 at Pebble couldn't be hit with every club. It wouldn't be ideal with a putter or driver -- but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be impossible. I haven't played Old Macdonald yet but I've played Pebble numerous times.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
When that happens [the demise of golf], old men will furtively beckon to their sons and, like fugitives from the guillotine recalling the elegant orgies at the court of Louis XV, will recite the glories of Portmarnock and Merion, of the Road Hole at St. Andrews, the sixth at Seminole, the eighteenth at Pebble Beach. They will take out this volume from its secret hiding place and they will say: "There is no question, son, that these were unholy places in an evil age. Unfortunately, I had a whale of a time."
 --Alister Cooke (Forward to The World Atlas of Golf)

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2011, 03:12:58 PM »
...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 07:20:44 PM by Jamie Van Gisbergen »

JMEvensky

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture? New
« Reply #127 on: May 30, 2011, 03:22:29 PM »

   deleted
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 09:06:21 AM by JMEvensky »

Dan King

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #128 on: May 30, 2011, 04:11:35 PM »
Jamie Van Gisbergen writes:
Mr. King if you do not understand how it would be nearly impossible to hit the green on #7 (and hold it, keeping the ball on the putting surface) with a 3 iron, 3 wood, driver, etc., then you have either not played the hole as many times as you want to think or you're not very intelligent.

A little touchy there Jamie. Since other people have hit the green with clubs you can't imagine hitting it with, it would seem the trouble is your ability or imagination. But if your ego requires you to question my intelligence -- go for it.

It's absolutely idiotic to suggest what you do. Your credibility is now 100% lost with me and I shall make it a point to never respond to any more of your ignorant gibberish.

I guess I'll have to live with the loss.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me.
 --Frederick Douglass

Scott Warren

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #129 on: May 30, 2011, 06:20:18 PM »
Jamie,

That was a hell of a spray you just gave Dan.

What were you saying up above about Pine Valley being "unplayable for anyone above a 10 or so handicap"?

David Harshbarger

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #130 on: May 30, 2011, 06:32:05 PM »
I've been thinking this since the genesis of this thread, but was afraid to speak up due to the fact I'd be called a "Butt Boy".  Oh well, it has to be said.

We all should take note of this thread.  Here is Tom Doak, who is one of the top designers in the game today and, arguably, on his way to becoming an all-time great.  But rather than rest on his current body of work and knowledge, he starts this thread to seek even more knowledge.  Maybe it is only one idea, one sentence, or an idea of his own that's seed is in one of these posts...but he still seeks to better himself.

Regardless of what line of business we are in, perhaps we should take note of this.

Seconded. 

And no, you aren't a brown noser for this comment.   Hell, he's getting callenged on the variety of the 3's on some courses, and answering.  My take is that Mr Doak is engaged, and that is a state we should all strive for more.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Tim Martin

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #131 on: May 30, 2011, 07:04:39 PM »
I've been thinking this since the genesis of this thread, but was afraid to speak up due to the fact I'd be called a "Butt Boy".  Oh well, it has to be said.

We all should take note of this thread.  Here is Tom Doak, who is one of the top designers in the game today and, arguably, on his way to becoming an all-time great.  But rather than rest on his current body of work and knowledge, he starts this thread to seek even more knowledge.  Maybe it is only one idea, one sentence, or an idea of his own that's seed is in one of these posts...but he still seeks to better himself.

Regardless of what line of business we are in, perhaps we should take note of this.

Seconded. 

And no, you aren't a brown noser for this comment.   Hell, he's getting callenged on the variety of the 3's on some courses, and answering.  My take is that Mr Doak is engaged, and that is a state we should all strive for more.

Guys-I totally agree and will be happy to be called a butt boy on this one. Mr. Doak is very much engaged and his responses benefit those that take the time to read and consider them. Although I lurked for a number of years before actually posting it didn`t really sink in until I received a sign on from Ran how involved he is.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #132 on: May 30, 2011, 07:34:50 PM »
Jamie,

That was a hell of a spray you just gave Dan.

What were you saying up above about Pine Valley being "unplayable for anyone above a 10 or so handicap"?

OK, full disclaimer, and I've said this before, I have not played Pine Valley, I HAVE walked it 3 times during the Crump Cup and watched however many really good amateur golfers play the course. It is simply a difficult golf course. Every hole requires a fairly substantial carry to reach the fairway, a couple of holes come to mind as requiring substantial carrys to reach the green from the fairway, 2 and 18 come to mind readily, 8 and 17 require decent carries with pinpoint precision to reach and remain on the green, 7 calls for a top notch second shot to carry Hell's Half Acre, and I could go on. Add to that greens that have some significant contour where pin-ball putting is quite possible, especially #2, and the course is a substantial test. Isn't there a long standing bet at the club where members say that a first time guest won't break 100 on his first try?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #133 on: May 30, 2011, 07:58:35 PM »
Jamie,

I have played Pine Valley, a bunch of times.  The last time, with my current 10-12 handicap, it was still playable, but just about at the limit of where I could still enjoy it if I played reasonably.  I think the club has always advised members to be cautious about bringing guests with a handicap of 15 or higher, and I would say that's the line where the course becomes "unplayable", or at least "unenjoyable".

Mac Plumart

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Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #134 on: May 30, 2011, 08:07:18 PM »
Well, that begs the question...Is Pine Valley a "great" course?  Sounds "great" via Golf Digest standards.  But what about a challenge to the low marker, while still being enjoyable to the mid to high handicap?  I think Seminole might be in that same mold, but I haven't played Pine Valley...so I can't comment...just ask.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2011, 08:09:45 PM »
Mac:

Pine Valley is a great course.

St. Andrews and Royal Melbourne are much closer to being an ideal course, fitting the definition you've cited to a tee.  I caddied for one or two people in St. Andrews who had barely played 18 holes of golf in their lives, and they could get around The Old Course, on their own terms.  They wouldn't even make it to the second tee at Pine Valley!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2011, 08:13:12 PM »
Jamie,

Quote
Every hole requires a fairly substantial carry to reach the fairway

Not true. Not even nearly true. Very few holes have long carries.

Quote
a couple of holes come to mind as requiring substantial carrys to reach the green from the fairway, 2 and 18 come to mind readily,

There's no "carry" on the approach at 2. You hit over bunkers and rough to a green on a hill. With a short iron. On 18 you hit over a narrow creek to a punchbowl green. Hardly excessive.

Quote
8 and 17 require decent carries with pinpoint precision to reach and remain on the green,

You're hitting a wedge on 8 and 17. There's no "carry", just fronting bunkers.

Quote
Isn't there a long standing bet at the club where members say that a first time guest won't break 100 on his first try?

If there is, it's a bet a lot of members must lose.

Honestly, Jamie, that PV is unplayable to anyone over 10hcp is ridiculous. At the very least it falls short given the >10hcp members who've quite comfortably played the course for years.

I'm amazed you've walked the course three times and have such a hugely misguided view of it.

Mac: I agree, the course Jamie is describing doesn't sound all that great. Fortunately for golf, the course he's referencing isn't Pine Valley. At least not the one I played.

One of the blokes I played it with was a mid 20s handicap, he used the forward tees and won all three of the six-hole matches he played.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:16:15 PM by Scott Warren »

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2011, 09:00:17 PM »
 >:( >:( >:(

Great answer re "great" vs ideal.     Well said TD

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2011, 09:16:39 PM »
Jamie,

Quote
Every hole requires a fairly substantial carry to reach the fairway

Not true. Not even nearly true. Very few holes have long carries.

Quote
a couple of holes come to mind as requiring substantial carrys to reach the green from the fairway, 2 and 18 come to mind readily,

There's no "carry" on the approach at 2. You hit over bunkers and rough to a green on a hill. With a short iron. On 18 you hit over a narrow creek to a punchbowl green. Hardly excessive.

Quote
8 and 17 require decent carries with pinpoint precision to reach and remain on the green,

You're hitting a wedge on 8 and 17. There's no "carry", just fronting bunkers.

Quote
Isn't there a long standing bet at the club where members say that a first time guest won't break 100 on his first try?

If there is, it's a bet a lot of members must lose.

Honestly, Jamie, that PV is unplayable to anyone over 10hcp is ridiculous. At the very least it falls short given the >10hcp members who've quite comfortably played the course for years.

I'm amazed you've walked the course three times and have such a hugely misguided view of it.

Mac: I agree, the course Jamie is describing doesn't sound all that great. Fortunately for golf, the course he's referencing isn't Pine Valley. At least not the one I played.

One of the blokes I played it with was a mid 20s handicap, he used the forward tees and won all three of the six-hole matches he played.

Scott-There seems to be quite a difference of opinion between you and Mr. Doak on the playability of Pine Valley. His thoughts are that anyone on the outside of 10-12 is going to have a very tough day. With the members tees having a slope/course rating of 72.7/153 this is one extremely hard golf course. Even though 2 is 355 from the members tees I wouldn`t exactly call the waste area you have to play over just "bunkers and rough". It seems you also minimize the difficulty of 18 as well in that you have a substantial carry off the tee before you can think about the" hardly excessive" approach. My experience is as a patron at the Crump Cup but I believe you are downplaying it`s difficulty. I think it`s fair to say that after three trips around Jamie has made at least some fair observations.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 09:19:25 PM by Tim Martin »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2011, 09:29:49 PM »
Tim,

I think Tom said "unenjoyable". Jamie is alleging it's "unplayable".

Unenjoyable is a personal thing. I can certainly understand there are people who would not enjoy playing Pine Valley. Certainly in comparison to a TOC/RM West style of golf course.

But having played it with (just dug out the scorecard) a 12, a 17 and a 19 who was in his 60s, I can't get on board with someone saying the course is supposed to have been unplayable for the folks I played it with.

The 12 handicap (who had played it only twice previously) shot 86. The 19 shot 90 from the front tees. The 17 - a member - shot 91.

That doesn't sound all that unplayable to me.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2011, 09:55:35 PM »
Mr. King if you do not understand how it would be nearly impossible to hit the green on #7 (and hold it, keeping the ball on the putting surface) with a 3 iron, 3 wood, driver, etc., then you have either not played the hole as many times as you want to think or you're not very intelligent. Hell man, US OPEN contestants, PGA Tour players, were barely keeping the ball on the surface at last years US Open with sand and lob wedges. It's absolutely idiotic to suggest what you do. Your credibility is now 100% lost with me and I shall make it a point to never respond to any more of your ignorant gibberish.

Jamie, is it necessary to be that antagonistic?  Everyone on this site should be entitled to their opinion. Your post is is disrespectful in the extreme.  Dan king has been a solid contributor here for many years. 

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2011, 10:16:22 PM »
I've been thinking this since the genesis of this thread, but was afraid to speak up due to the fact I'd be called a "Butt Boy".  Oh well, it has to be said.

We all should take note of this thread.  Here is Tom Doak, who is one of the top designers in the game today and, arguably, on his way to becoming an all-time great.  But rather than rest on his current body of work and knowledge, he starts this thread to seek even more knowledge.  Maybe it is only one idea, one sentence, or an idea of his own that's seed is in one of these posts...but he still seeks to better himself.

Regardless of what line of business we are in, perhaps we should take note of this.

I think Tom's initial post suggests he is doing this for amusement and curiosity rather than a desire to better himself:
"...I thought that many of the responses on the thread about Jack Nicklaus were pretty silly.  But, as long as we're going for silly -- let's hear your responses here."

Seeing as he has seen and studied more golf holes than nearly anyone in the world, I find it doubtful that many of us here will be able to teach him any facts.  We can only provide opinions that might persuade him one way or another.  Just because I don't like one of his golf holes doesn't mean I can actually teach him something, our preferences are just different. (Tom, if you care, I would prefer even more gorse removal at Pacific Dunes.  Don't laugh, but holes 2 and 15 made me a bit nervous off the tee in December 2008).

Tom, I would guess I could teach you the most by playing one of your courses with you, so you can see how an 11 handicap with a wild drive plays your holes.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2011, 10:32:34 PM »
Let me see if I can figure out how to get colors to work, there are too many responses to do without that.
Jamie,

Quote
Every hole requires a fairly substantial carry to reach the fairway

Not true. Not even nearly true. Very few holes have long carries.

From the back/forward tees 1 requires a carry of 170/155 yards, 2 is 160/140 yards, 3 is 175/140 yards, 4 is 210/145 yards...I can go on. 7 requires about 235 carry off the back to reach the fairway, 9 is 200, and so forth.
 
Quote
a couple of holes come to mind as requiring substantial carrys to reach the green from the fairway, 2 and 18 come to mind readily,

There's no "carry" on the approach at 2. You hit over bunkers and rough to a green on a hill. With a short iron. On 18 you hit over a narrow creek to a punchbowl green. Hardly excessive.

The second green is roughly 20 feet above the fairway according to Google Earth, minimum 60 yard carry over a waste area and two deep pot bunkers. 18 green is 10 feet above the fairway and a 100 yard carry from fairway to front fringe to reach the green, maybe not "excessive" but certainly rather significant.

Quote
8 and 17 require decent carries with pinpoint precision to reach and remain on the green,

You're hitting a wedge on 8 and 17. There's no "carry", just fronting bunkers.

So you admit that there is a bunker between the fairway and the green? There is no "open" approach to the green, and it was designed that way

Quote
Isn't there a long standing bet at the club where members say that a first time guest won't break 100 on his first try?

If there is, it's a bet a lot of members must lose.

Honestly, Jamie, that PV is unplayable to anyone over 10hcp is ridiculous. At the very least it falls short given the >10hcp members who've quite comfortably played the course for years.

I'm amazed you've walked the course three times and have such a hugely misguided view of it.

Mac: I agree, the course Jamie is describing doesn't sound all that great. Fortunately for golf, the course he's referencing isn't Pine Valley. At least not the one I played.

One of the blokes I played it with was a mid 20s handicap, he used the forward tees and won all three of the six-hole matches he played.

OK, maybe it isn't completely 'unplayable' but it wouldn't be enjoyable in the least, even Mr. Doak admits that. So, maybe they could play, but it would be like a mid-card boxer squaring off against Lennox Lewis, they might keep Lewis from delivering a knockout blow, but they'll get whipped pretty good.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2011, 10:34:31 PM »
Jamie,

I played Pine Valley when I couldn't hit the ball very far.
Driver - 3-wood into # 18

I played well and was rewarded with a good score.

There are some heroic carries, like on # 5 and # 7, but other than that, the golfer can negotiate his way around the golf course reasonably well.

Remember, PV was created as a championship course, not a course intended to accommodate novices, and in that regard it has succeeded royally

It's WIDE fairways are very accommodating and if the golfer plays the appropriate tees they should have an enjoyable challenge

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2011, 10:41:15 PM »
Jamie, you're talking complete rubbish.

You're talking about >10-handicap players, but listing carries from the tournament tees.

From the members' tees, most of the carries are in the 110-130m range over sand, so even if you can't make it, you'll find your ball easily and have a shot.

If a player is overawed by the challenge of carrying the ball 130m in the air to wide fairways, he can play the forward tees.

Your deduction that a series of ~120m carries to wide fairways makes for a course that is unplayable for golfers with a greater than 10 handicap is laughable, plain and simple.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2011, 11:24:08 PM »
3-iron to 8-iron is not enough variety in the par-3 holes??

They're all irons. He wanted to hit an iron, a metal wood, a wedge, and a putter to emulate ?Grant?. Or maybe a bunt driver.


Remember what I wrote about the variety at Pacific Dunes in the summer? That is about as good as it gets, 2i-GW. Pebble is like 3i-SW, maybe even LW, from the 'blue' tees. As far as Old Macdonald, I thought the Short hole was too long, the Biarritz too short, The Road has a hole placement that completely takes away from the intent of the hole (the front tier), and The Cape not "Capy" enough. That being said, its still possibly one of the 5 best courses I have played. I was just making a point that sometimes it seems like there is not exceptional variety in the par 3's, Pacific has it, the rest not as much.

Jamie,

First question.

What do you call the par on the hole where you hit driver, driver? The example of the fine driver, driver combination that Bubba hit at Kapalua #18 comes to mind. Would you not agree that such a hole is known as a par 5? Why would then a hole where you hit one driver be called a par 3? Truly it would be a par 4.

What do you call the par on holes where you hit driver, fairway wood? It seems to me that the tour pros also call that a par 5. So if you only hit one fairway wood, why does that reduce it to a par 3? Because the ball sits on a tee, instead of the ground? I think not. I think a hole where you hit a single fairway wood is a par 4.

That leaves us with the irons in your bag. What is the longest iron in your bag? I suspect it is a 3 iron. (But perhaps from what your wrote above, it is a 2 iron) Therefore, the longest club you should be hitting to a par 3 should be a 3 iron (or maybe a 2). So we have that end of the spectrum covered.

On the other end of the spectrum. What is the percentage of great par 3s in the world where you would be hitting wedge? Am I correct in assuming it is extremely low? In that case, why would you be calling for great courses to have par 3s where you hit wedge?

That leaves us with a reasonable range of clubs to hit to par 3s. That would be 9 iron to 3 iron. A. W. Tillinghast wrote a strong argument in Gleanings form the Wayside that par 3s should be reachable with an iron. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with it. So it seems that a range from 8 iron to 3 iron is nearly ideal, and it is a false criticism to put down a course for asking you to use that range of clubs on the par 3s. Indeed, I would think the great minds of golf would say you should be praising a course for that set of club selections. Certainly you would agree that you are not one of the great minds of golf.

As to what advice I can give Tom Doak here. That would be to ignore the likes of Jamie. But then, I suspect he already knew that.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2011, 11:50:46 PM »

Isn't there a long standing bet at the club where members say that a first time guest won't break 100 on his first try?

I have only been there once but I would say jo. Too bad since I shot 78 the first time around. Now at dinner the night before we played our host went around the table of 7 first timers and gave a score based on handicap that he guaranteed we would not break. As a plus one he gave me 75. If asked I would have probably taken that bet. I would have won had I not doubled both par 5s. I did beat that score the second time with a 74. By the way, no one beat the score he gave them their first time around. We had everywhere from plus one to 13 and everyone found the course quite enjoyable.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #147 on: May 31, 2011, 08:16:47 AM »
Tim,

I think Tom said "unenjoyable". Jamie is alleging it's "unplayable".

Unenjoyable is a personal thing. I can certainly understand there are people who would not enjoy playing Pine Valley. Certainly in comparison to a TOC/RM West style of golf course.

But having played it with (just dug out the scorecard) a 12, a 17 and a 19 who was in his 60s, I can't get on board with someone saying the course is supposed to have been unplayable for the folks I played it with.

The 12 handicap (who had played it only twice previously) shot 86. The 19 shot 90 from the front tees. The 17 - a member - shot 91.

That doesn't sound all that unplayable to me.

Scott- I agree that it did not appear unplayable by any means, just hard.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #148 on: May 31, 2011, 07:33:33 PM »
That's it exactly.

I think it's a fascinating course, because if you break each shot down to exactly what is required, most of the shots don't ask for something extraordinary, but often there's temptation to try for a little bit more than you should and as soon as you miss the ample fairways by even an inch, you're in massive trouble.

And consider that 2, 6, 8, 10, 12 and 17 are short for their par. I am not a long hitter and I hit PW, half SW, 8i, GW and PW into five of them (buggered my drive at the 6th).

It's brilliant - wide fairways, many holes that tend towards being shorter than is typical these days, but severe punishment if you miss a shot.

I honestly see no reason why any golfer capable of carrying the ball 150m off the tee shouldn't be able to play to their handicap there, given enough plays to get past the mystique and learn the holes.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What could you teach ME about golf course architecture?
« Reply #149 on: June 01, 2011, 06:51:32 AM »
That's it exactly.

I think it's a fascinating course, because if you break each shot down to exactly what is required, most of the shots don't ask for something extraordinary, but often there's temptation to try for a little bit more than you should and as soon as you miss the ample fairways by even an inch, you're in massive trouble.

...

I honestly see no reason why any golfer capable of carrying the ball 150m off the tee shouldn't be able to play to their handicap there, given enough plays to get past the mystique and learn the holes.


Scott:

I really don't think that's an accurate description of the challenge of Pine Valley.  It is not about trying for more than you can do ... it is about being absolutely comfortable over each shot.  Once a player who does not hit the ball consistently stumbles a bit, and is penalized harshly for it, he will likely get out of his comfort zone, grip the club too tightly, and fall to pieces.  That's not going to happen to a 17-handicap member who has played the course 100 times [although I might argue he's not having much fun anymore], but it certainly IS going to happen to a 17-handicap visitor.  That's why I put the over/under at 15.

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