[Tom_Doak]

3-iron to 8-iron is not enough variety in the par-3 holes??

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

3-iron to 8-iron is not enough variety in the par-3 holes??

Well, in the winter, the range runs from 8 iron, maybe 9, to 3 wood or possibly driver, depending on strength of wind, according to a friend of mine who has played in winter and hits the ball just as far as I do.

Same with Pacific, I hit a 2 iron on 10 during the summer, GW on 14. But in the winter, they were all between 5 iron and 8 iron.

Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes have reversals on the Par 3's and 5's from winter to summer, meaning the par 3's at Pacific have FAR more variety in summer than winter and the par 5's are more varied in winter than summer; Old Macdonald has more par 3 variety in winter and more par 5 variety in summer, in relation to the opposite seasons. No offense intended, but I think Pacific would be better with winter par 5's and 4's and summer par 3's, though obviously not possible now and probably not possible to start with.

And the basic answer to your question, is that, no, 3i to 8i is not exceptional variety. In a related question, would you ever consider building a 288 yard par 3 or a 106 yard par 3? After all, holes like that do exist on elite courses, and I would think it would be pretty awesome to see those two holes, yardage wise, on the same course. Just a thought.

[Scott Warren]

Jamie,

In a related question, would you ever consider building a 288 yard par 3 or a 106 yard par 3? After all, holes like that do exist on elite courses, and I would think it would be pretty awesome to see those two holes, yardage wise, on the same course. Just a thought.

That's almost exactly the length of the 4th and 7th holes at Barnbougle Dunes.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie,

In a related question, would you ever consider building a 288 yard par 3 or a 106 yard par 3? After all, holes like that do exist on elite courses, and I would think it would be pretty awesome to see those two holes, yardage wise, on the same course. Just a thought.

That's almost exactly the length of the 4th and 7th holes at Barnbougle Dunes.

Unless my reading has failed me, the online scorecard from Barnbougle says that 4 is a par 4...

[Tom_Doak]

Jamie:

The longest par-3's I've built are all around 235-250 yards.  I've built a few great holes in the 270- to 300-yard range, but I have always called them par-4's.  I think my clients would freak out at a par-3 of 288 yards.  That's not for normal players, and though it's certainly possible for great players, I have not built any courses with great players as the main audience.

I've built some very short ones ... the 7th at Barnbougle is the shortest, but I've built several par-3 holes under 150 yards, usually requiring some convincing of the client.  There was a thread just a week or two ago where we talked about how par-3 holes tend to bunch in yardage because green committees and owners want to lengthen the short ones, but resist having any that are "too long".

Your analysis of the par-5's and par-3's at Bandon is interesting, to a point, but it ignores the realities of the site.  The par-3's at Pacific are pretty much all as long as they could practically be built, and so are the par-5's.  I guess the 15th hole could have been a bit longer, but that green site set up for a long running second shot, so I didn't want to make it out of reach in two.  And I would disagree that the 12th hole is reachable in two in the summer wind ... perhaps for a Tour pro, but not for anyone I play with.

[Dan King]

Jamie Van Gisbergen writes:
Unless my reading has failed me, the online scorecard from Barnbougle says that 4 is a par 4..

Did you know a 288 yard hole is always a 288 yard hole? Put any number on the scorecard or on a post near the tee and it will still be a 288 yard hole. Do you really let the number on the scorecard dictate how you are going to play a hole?

Cheers,
Dan King

Par is whatever I say it is. I've got one hole that's a par 23 and yesterday I damn near birdied the sucker.
 --Willie Nelson

[Scott Warren]

Jamie

Unless my reading has failed me, the online scorecard from Barnbougle says that 4 is a par 4...

It's a 264m/290y (give or take a metre) direct line from the back of the tee to the middle of the green.

Why does it matter what the scorecard reads? It's a 290-yard hole. Followed three holes later by a 110y hole...

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Tom-You are correct, 12 is not exactly reachable, I just define reachable a little differently than most. To me, for the purpose of design, if a fair number of players can get within 20-30 yards of the green in two, its "reachable." I hit Driver-3 wood to like 15 yards short of the green, I used a putter from there, so, perhaps unfairly, I deemed it to be a reachable hole. And I wasn't ignoring the site, I mentioned that it would be impossible for the holes I mentioned to happen, but would be cool if that was the case.


As to yardage making the hole and how I play it, it depends. A view of the hole at Barnbougle says it was designed to be played as a par 4 and that it seems to have an Alps feature and a very tight opening to the green. In contrast, the 8th at Oakmont is pretty much flat with a 25 +/- yard wide opening to the green. No, par does not determine, by itself, how I play a hole, architects intent does.

[Mac Plumart]

3i to 8i is not exceptional variety

Huh?

[Garland Bayley]

3-iron to 8-iron is not enough variety in the par-3 holes??

They're all irons. He wanted to hit an iron, a metal wood, a wedge, and a putter to emulate ?Grant?. Or maybe a bunt driver.

[David Royer]

Tom,  not sure if you're still in Paris.  If you are I would recommend you and your wife visit the American cemetery at Normandy.  Today is memorial day and I' m humbled everytime I've visited the cemetery. My first visit was 1969 with my father who is WW II veteran.  I'll never forget them crying as they walked through the cemetery. To all the GCA vets, my best wishes and thank you for your service. 

[Tom_Doak]

To all,

Thanks for the tips on travel in Paris.  By the time I saw most of them, we were on to Bordeaux, and now have arrived back home.  But it was a great trip and I suspect we'll be back someday, so I will file these away for the future.

[Mac Plumart]

I've been thinking this since the genesis of this thread, but was afraid to speak up due to the fact I'd be called a "Butt Boy".  Oh well, it has to be said.

We all should take note of this thread.  Here is Tom Doak, who is one of the top designers in the game today and, arguably, on his way to becoming an all-time great.  But rather than rest on his current body of work and knowledge, he starts this thread to seek even more knowledge.  Maybe it is only one idea, one sentence, or an idea of his own that's seed is in one of these posts...but he still seeks to better himself.

Regardless of what line of business we are in, perhaps we should take note of this.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

3-iron to 8-iron is not enough variety in the par-3 holes??

They're all irons. He wanted to hit an iron, a metal wood, a wedge, and a putter to emulate ?Grant?. Or maybe a bunt driver.

Remember what I wrote about the variety at Pacific Dunes in the summer? That is about as good as it gets, 2i-GW. Pebble is like 3i-SW, maybe even LW, from the 'blue' tees. As far as Old Macdonald, I thought the Short hole was too long, the Biarritz too short, The Road has a hole placement that completely takes away from the intent of the hole (the front tier), and The Cape not "Capy" enough. That being said, its still possibly one of the 5 best courses I have played. I was just making a point that sometimes it seems like there is not exceptional variety in the par 3's, Pacific has it, the rest not as much.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Variety in Par 3s is generally hard to come by. You can't really make a par 3 longer than the average hitter hits his drive, otherwise he'll complain about it not being a par 4. So that means longhitters are going to use maybe a 4 iron on that hole - fairway woods for them are out of the question.

Conversely, at the lower end of the spectrum there is variety for an average hitter if two holes are 110 and 130 yards. For a longhitter this is almost the same club.

One solution to this dilemma would be to limit the course to three par 3s. Maybe have one at 110 yards, another at 160 and another one at 210 yards. This is cool for long and average hitters.

If a fourth par 3 is absolutely necessary, then it should at least play differently from the other hole of similar length. One hole could require an aerial shot and the other could have a very shallow green that tends to feed into a back bunker or so.

Ulrich

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Variety in Par 3s is generally hard to come by. You can't really make a par 3 longer than the average hitter hits his drive, otherwise he'll complain about it not being a par 4. So that means longhitters are going to use maybe a 4 iron on that hole - fairway woods for them are out of the question.

Conversely, at the lower end of the spectrum there is variety for an average hitter if two holes are 110 and 130 yards. For a longhitter this is almost the same club.

One solution to this dilemma would be to limit the course to three par 3s. Maybe have one at 110 yards, another at 160 and another one at 210 yards. This is cool for long and average hitters.

If a fourth par 3 is absolutely necessary, then it should at least play differently from the other hole of similar length. One hole could require an aerial shot and the other could have a very shallow green that tends to feed into a back bunker or so.

Ulrich

Of you could make 5 par 3's with yardages of like 175, 250, 165, 115, and 225; thats functionally how the par 3's at Pacific Dunes played for me in the summer.

However, your concept of "too long" is flawed because it does not take into account different sets of tees. Take the 16th at French Lick Dye which was talked about on here not too long ago. It is 301 from the back, somewhat manageable for those players who have any business playing an 8100 golf course. But from the 6100 tees, the yardage the average golfer aught to play from, it is a very manageable 170. No big deal.

[Ulrich Mayring]

You are right that different tees can alleviate the problem. But most courses don't have that flexibility length-wise as in your example. 130 yards between back and regular tees! And we haven't even started thinking about the women.

Ulrich

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

You are right that different tees can alleviate the problem. But most courses don't have that flexibility length-wise as in your example. 130 yards between back and regular tees! And we haven't even started thinking about the women.

Ulrich

The forward tee on that hole is 113 yards. True, most older courses do not have that ability, but newer courses do, in many cases. Just take a course like Sand Hills or Ballyneal; from what I understand about them, you could have designed a 25,000 yard, 45 hole loop out there or something crazy like that because of the sheer volume of land available. The main problem that lies between Mr. Doak and others designing holes that are really long or really short is owner perception. A 288 yard par 3 looks weird on the scorecard, so does a 105 yarder. Plus its hard to make a "target" yardage with a 105 yard par 3...

[Pete Lavallee]

somewhat manageable for those players who have any business playing an 8100 golf course.

The scary thing is, I'm sure you can play an 8100 yard golf course; ever wonder why it's hard to instill a sense of yardage balance in a modern course?

[Dan King]

If you want to hit a three-wood to a par-3 hit a three-wood to a par-3. I good golfer should be able to hit a three-wood to just about any par-3 in the world.

There's a story told about Christy O'Connor (Himself) who was playing in a pro-am. After hitting to a par-3 one of the amateurs asked Christy what club he hit. He replied he hit a 7-iron. The Amateur made a big deal that he only hit an 8-iron -- bettering the Irish golfer. Christy then hit the green with every club in his bag.

That's talent. Having your GPS tell you what club to hit and then hitting it is just doing what a robot could do. It shows very little talent.

Next time you are faced with a 140 yard hole, go ahead and hit a three-wood.

Cheers,
Dan King

Are you sure you played all the holes Christy?
 --Henry Cotton (when Christy O'Conner shot 64 in 1985 to break Cotton's course record set 51 years earlier)

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

somewhat manageable for those players who have any business playing an 8100 golf course.

The scary thing is, I'm sure you can play an 8100 yard golf course; ever wonder why it's hard to instill a sense of yardage balance in a modern course?

Here is the catch, courses are being built so long because they want to try to be something for everyone. Extra length is the only way to do that and retain some semblance of playability for the average player. Problem is, no one wants to build the forward tees short enough. I was thrilled when I saw a forward tee at like 4200 yards at Old Macdonald because that is a good, playable yardage for the average lady. But back tees at 8200 yards and forward tees at 4200 yards looks insane. So you end up with something like 7200 and 5200, much more normal looking, but potentially bland for the better player over time and nearly unplayable for the ladies. Even at French Lick, the tees are 8100 and 5100, tough for long hitting men, nearly impossible for ladies. The other way to be difficult for long/very good men is the Pine Valley/Oakmont mold and those courses, at nearly any yardage, are unplayable for anyone with higher than a 10 or so handicap. Its an impossible balance to strike in a single course.

Mr. King that all depends on the hole. I would say that no one on Earth could hit the green with every club in the bag on #7 at Pebble Beach...in contrast with say, #5 at Old Macdonald where I think it could surely be done.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The main problem that lies between Mr. Doak and others designing holes that are really long or really short is owner perception.

Well, not only that. If you have 200 yards between back and front markers, then you have 200 yards of relatively uninspiring golfing terrain plus a lot of walking to and fro, just to get to the right tee.

Ulrich

[Tom_Doak]

If you want to hit a three-wood to a par-3 hit a three-wood to a par-3. I good golfer should be able to hit a three-wood to just about any par-3 in the world.

There's a story told about Christy O'Connor (Himself) who was playing in a pro-am. After hitting to a par-3 one of the amateurs asked Christy what club he hit. He replied he hit a 7-iron. The Amateur made a big deal that he only hit an 8-iron -- bettering the Irish golfer. Christy then hit the green with every club in his bag.

That's talent. Having your GPS tell you what club to hit and then hitting it is just doing what a robot could do. It shows very little talent.

Next time you are faced with a 140 yard hole, go ahead and hit a three-wood.

Cheers,
Dan King

Are you sure you played all the holes Christy?
 --Henry Cotton (when Christy O'Conner shot 64 in 1985 to break Cotton's course record set 51 years earlier)

Dan:

A friend of mine played with Christy O'Connor in the Senior Open at Royal Portrush.  I am pretty sure it was a practice round instead of in the competition, but I'll check on that.

On one hole, the friend took out a 1-iron to hit a shot, and O'Connor announced to the small crowd following them that his fellow competitor was now going to hit a 1-iron, a club that he Himself did not have the talent to hit.

My friend was afraid to pull out the 1-iron again after that.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mr. O'Conner sounds like an ass. 

 

[Dan King]

PPallotta writes:
Mr. O'Conner sounds like an ass.

I'm going out on a limb here, but you might just be the first person to ever make such a statement.   

"The Americans had George Washington; Italy its Michelangelo; France a fellow called Napoleon, and the Irish Christy O'Connor," said Fred Daly.

"To me, only three players have looked entirely natural swinging a golf club -- Christy O'Connor, Roberto de Vicenzo and Neil Coles," said Lee Trevino. "I said it at Royal Dublin and it still holds good: Christy flows through the ball like fine wine."

"The Irish are a special breed of people," said Gary Player. "Their enthusiasm, their little stories at the bar and the beauty of the countyside have made an enormous impression on me. Christy O'Connor has been one of Ireland's great idols -- and correctly so. He has been a worthy representative of a proud sporting nation."

Cheers,
Dan King

If I had a pound for every hair raising story I heard about Christy I would be a rich man. If I was depending on a fiver for every one that was true I'd be a pauper.
 --Colm Smith

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()