[archie_struthers]

 

hey any of you guys played golf with  Doak. , I have. He plays pretty good but has a few issues!   Lol.   So please stop groveling at the Emperor's feetl !   TEP  wouldn't get off this easy ,so let him have it.....gotta give him credit though for asking !

I'm still thinking trajectory and collection areas.....there should be more emphasis on the former and the latter should be strictly verboten...even for Doak and company....

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

We all love telling golf stories. My favorite Tom Doak story is telling people how gracious you were when I finished playing Barnbougle for the first time ("so how did like your hole?").

I can't teach, but I always be happy to have inspired just one "little devil".

[Mike McGuire]

Seth Raynor would not have built fairway bunkers with a one foot lip that grounders run through (Blue Mound restoration).

[Patrick_Mucci]

In order to teach Tom, first you'd have to uncover what he doesn't know.

At this point in time, one thing's for certain, he doesn't know the combination to the locks on the door on TEPaul's room (suite) at Happydale Farms.  Nor does he know the security codes for access and egress for the perimeter fences.

[Tom_Doak]

Seth Raynor would not have built fairway bunkers with a one foot lip that grounders run through (Blue Mound restoration).

Mike:

I have never done any work at Blue Mound; I played it last fall for the first time in 20 years.  Bruce Hepner did all the work there, so you'd have to ask him about whichever bunker you are speaking of.  I thought the course looked 100% better than the previous time I was there, but it was mostly for getting the greens back to what they should be and for removing trees, not for the bunkers.

[Tom_Doak]

hey any of you guys played golf with  Doak. , I have. He plays pretty good but has a few issues!   Lol.   So please stop groveling at the Emperor's feetl !   TEP  wouldn't get off this easy ,so let him have it.....gotta give him credit though for asking !

I'm still thinking trajectory and collection areas.....there should be more emphasis on the former and the latter should be strictly verboten...even for Doak and company....

Archie:

It's funny you should mention trajectory.  I probably do the opposite of what you suggest.  I like to build greens on long holes where a running shot will be helped to the hole by ground contours, while a high lofted shot may be deflected away, or at least not stopped predictably.  Presumably, the really good player could choose to lay back off the tee and hit a longer club into the green to take advantage, or else hit a deliberately lower-trajectory approach ... but most just complain about why the high shot is penalized!

[Steve Lang]

  TD,  Perhaps how terrain and surface features affect wind fields...   and how to model & calibrate with some met station data.

s

[Russell Lo]

Tom.

I could certainly teach you a thing or two. How about a waterfall or enlarging a lake next time you get to some fine linksland. I can give you some hair grooming tips also when I have a little more time.

Off to my other courses!

D. Trump   

[archie_struthers]

 

The opposite of what I suggest???    I think not, you do exactly what I am talking about. As much as I love my childhood home Pine Valley, if there is one weakness it may be that trajectory is not a prime necessity as in most cases you  tee it high and let it fly.   However , somehow  Crump  in his genius created angles that challenge , and shots like the second on four  and twelve that just cry skip me in please skip me ! Perhaps just a few more of them and we wouldn't argue about the best of the best!

Tom , of course you get it, but here's hoping the best is yet to come!    To me, the use of contour to force trajectory is the true mark of creativity for a golf architect.  If someone can blend this with fabulous greens we have something really special!    Sure the litany of chores that go into  designing and CONSTRUCTING a course beautiful  are myriad, but imagination separates the special ones!

[Patrick_Mucci]

hey any of you guys played golf with  Doak. , I have. He plays pretty good but has a few issues!   Lol.   So please stop groveling at the Emperor's feetl !   TEP  wouldn't get off this easy ,so let him have it.....gotta give him credit though for asking !

I'm still thinking trajectory and collection areas.....there should be more emphasis on the former and the latter should be strictly verboten...even for Doak and company....

Archie:

It's funny you should mention trajectory.  I probably do the opposite of what you suggest.  I like to build greens on long holes where a running
shot will be helped to the hole by ground contours, while a high lofted shot may be deflected away, or at least not stopped predictably. 
Presumably, the really good player could choose to lay back off the tee and hit a longer club into the green to take advantage, or else hit a
deliberately lower-trajectory approach ... but most just complain about why the high shot is penalized!

Tom, 

What holes best exemplify this trait ?

[Jim_Coleman]

Eat at L'Ami Louis - pretentious, overpriced, but worth the experience.  Maybe that's architectural advice also.

[Ian Andrew]

.

[Bruce Katona]

Thanks Tom....Enjoy the City of Lights !! BK

[Mac Plumart]

-Also, (and on a totally different wave length) don't be afraid to design a "championship" course and show those pros how real golf should be played.  The latest Golf Digest talks about the USGA looking for more interesting tests of golf for its US Open.  Well, design an interesting championship course. 

Mac,

He has, you have played it

Simon

Good point Simon. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD,

First, you are being a great sport about this.  No wonder this board loves ya!

Second, of all the responses I have read, I would say Dan Kelly's is the most likely thing someone could teach any gca - to really see a course via the average female players eyes.  Not just you, but ALL of us.  And, the more clients urge you/us to build "championship courses" the less that viewpoint gets considered, almost inherently.

I suspect that if we had gca's playing with a typical group of 4 women, we would come away with some real nuggets about what golf is really like, rather than what we imagine its like from the way back tees for pros.

PS - Enjoy Paris.  I didn't find the people there rude at all, as some stereotypes would suggest.  One lady went out of her way to let me follow her to the airport when I had a flight to catch and was lost.  I stopped at a Texaco and in a panic, it was amazing that my high school french came back to me so quickly to ask directions!  Reminded me of that old Steve Martin routine...."Those french, it seems like they have a different word for everything!"

Cheers.

[Steve Kline]

Jeff - my mom was as low as a 13 handicap in her playing days. She could drive it 180 yards consistently and almost 200 yards often. Relatively she was virtually the equal of my dad - an 8 handicap that could drive it 230 yards. Yet, my mom was almost always hitting woods or long irons into every hole. I can't ever remember her hitting a pitching wedge into a par 4 for a second shot. Basically, I don't think the forward tees are ever anywhere near short enough.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

You might find this site interesting.  Cheers.

http://www.golfwithwomen.com/

[George Pazin]

Jeff - my mom was as low as a 13 handicap in her playing days. She could drive it 180 yards consistently and almost 200 yards often. Relatively she was virtually the equal of my dad - an 8 handicap that could drive it 230 yards. Yet, my mom was almost always hitting woods or long irons into every hole. I can't ever remember her hitting a pitching wedge into a par 4 for a second shot. Basically, I don't think the forward tees are ever anywhere near short enough.

This is an honest question, not trying to be a smart-ass:

Would it really make a difference to her? The times I've played with shorter hitters such as you describe - be they women, older gentlemen, or the occasional male who just doesn't seem to get anything out of his swing - their 110 yard club pretty much flew like my wedges. It wouldn't be like a wedge struck by a really good player - loads of spin, etc - but it generally flew short and landed soft.

So would it really be gratifying or even enjoyable to play a 250 yard par 4 so you can go driver-wedge?

-----

Pat C, thanks for the chuckle.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak, if you haven't seen it and have time, the museum formerly known as the Cluny and now Musee de Moyen Age is a very quiet spot in the area behind the Place St-Michel, opposite the Louvre.  The Woman with the Unicorn tapestries are really breathtaking.

[Jeff_Brauer]

George,

You kind of make my point.  In large part, good male players who are architects tend to sort of decide what women want out of golf rather than just go ask THEM!

[George Pazin]

Jeff, deciding others' opinions for them without asking is what we do best on here!

[Steve Kline]

Jeff - at least you and some others are on the issue. The forward tees often have angles that totally change the strategy of the hole too. That may not be as easy to over come depending on the visuals from the further tees.

George - virtually every male golfer under 50 can hit a pitching wedge to at least one green on a course. You don't think women want to hit the range of clubs that men do as well? Really? Let's just say my mom isn't afraid to speak her mind (she sued our club in Cincinnati over discrimination related to playing times and was spit on by at least one of the male members). I don't think you would want to ask her your question. 

And I'm not suggesting you are that type of would ever spit on woman.

[George Pazin]

George - virtually every male golfer under 50 can hit a pitching wedge to at least one green on a course. You don't think women want to hit the range of clubs that men do as well? Really? Let's just say my mom isn't afraid to speak her mind (she sued our club in Cincinnati over discrimination related to playing times and was spit on by at least one of the male members). I don't think you would want to ask her your question. 

And I'm not suggesting you are that type of would ever spit on woman.

I honestly don't know, and I'd love to learn your mom's thoughts. I've played with plenty of older golfers at my local muni, and none seemed the least bit put off by hitting repeated 5 woods. I played with an Irish gent in his mid to late 60s who seemed to hit nothing but woods the entire round - aside from around the green - and he wiped the floor with me. He didn't seem at all bothered by what clubs I was hitting (though he did ask about one in surprise after the tee shot on #2 - never mentioned it again afterward - in stark contrast to his other buddies, who were younger and seemed overly concerned with what I was hitting).

I think many who enjoy architecture are overly concerned with what clubs people are hitting. I'm not a believer in the "requires every club in the bag" praise, that's just a weak cliche, imho. I'm more concerned with other aspects of the shot - trajectory, shape, etc.

I'd guess most older golfers and most women frequently hit their wedges, it's just not on approach shots. The 9th hole on my muni is a par 5 of about 380-400 yards from the forward tees - how much shorter do you want to go?

[Steve Kline]

George - if that is the case are you an advocate for a single set of tees only on a golf course? Given your position I think that makes far more sense than having a course with a set of tees for men where they hit drivers and irons (for the most part) and a set of tees for women where they drivers, woods, and irons.

[Jeff_Brauer]

George,

Check out that website above.  The shortest par 5 for women is a dilemma.  Based on 130 yard tee shots, and 110 yard fw woods, 350 or so is a long par 5 for them, and yet many balk if we propose ladies tees shorter than the USGA minimum of 405 for ladies.  

If you think the middle shot on most par 5's is boring, try the middle two or three shots if you are the typical woman player!  Add in the middle shot on most or all par 4's and can tell me we are making courses good enough for women?

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