[Tom_Doak]

"Okay, who has the cajones to start a similarly titled thread about either Doak or CC?"  -- Jeff Brauer


Mostly, I started this just to answer Jeff's question.  And I thought that many of the responses on the thread about Jack Nicklaus were pretty silly.  But, as long as we're going for silly -- let's hear your responses here.

Note that I am going out for the day with my wife in Paris and may or may not ever get back to responding to what's posted. 

[Adam Lawrence]

Tom

Not sure about GCA but I reckon I can give you a few good tips on Paris. If you've not done so before, go to the Musee Picasso in the Marais, one of the city's hidden gems, and then have a sandwich at L'As du Falafel round the corner. And the Musee Rodin is fabulous on a spring day.

[Scott Warren]

Tom, if you never have, you must go to the Catacombes - entry is right outside Denfert Rocherau metro stop (I probably just butchered the spelling but I trust Adam Lawrence will correct me if I did!).

I could teach you nothing about golf architecture. Maybe a nice hybrid of the two threads might be "what did Jack teach you?"

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

Not sure about GCA but I reckon I can give you a few good tips on Paris. If you've not done so before, go to the Musee Picasso in the Marais, one of the city's hidden gems, and then have a sandwich at L'As du Falafel round the corner. And the Musee Rodin is fabulous on a spring day.

Adam:

Thanks for the tip, but according to all my guidebooks, the Musee Picasso is closed for extensive remodeling.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Fabulous thread title Tom - I am looking forward to the posts, hopefully I can think of something!

In the meantime, try and find Le Chateaubriand (129Avenue Parmentier, 75011 - ph. 43 57 45 95, not sure what you need in France to dial )- take you wife there for lunch - you will not be disappointed with bang for your buck, kinda like the French Barnbougle Dunes!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom - Without talking you to I dont know what you know and what you dont, but I suspect I would be able to give you some insight on the UK perspective of building courses and the problems we have with some grasses and why we do things and the different needs we have to think of because of our restricted seasons.

I know I have learned a lot from this site and I suspect you have picked up an odd tip of two.

[Sean_A]

Tom

I don't reckon you want to hear me rant about bunkers again, so how bout a Paris rant?

If the weather is nice, there is a great walk through the Passages and Grand Boulevards area.  Start at the top at Passage Verdeau (M Le Peletier or Grand Boulevards) and follow all the way down to Gallery Vero Dodat (quite near M Louvre).  The walk goes through a fantastic part of Paris where you can see what once existed side by side with the Blvds that replaced the passages.  Its not a long walk, but it can take time if you are a wanderer.  If you want more details shoot me an email.  


Ciao

 

[Jim Nugent]

GCA, nothing.  I could probably improve your website though. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Now where do I start, no seriously there is very little that I can suggest when it comes to golf courses design. 

However, I would request that the site selection process is by far the most import part of any design and great care should be taken in choosing the right site. Land Fit for Purpose, perhaps but that selection process, while not always in your hands actually dictates the financial budget.

I sincerely believe that a Designer (not just in the golf industry) first duty is to assess the project in hand, and just because the Client has the money to do what he wants, the right location is still fundamental to a good design.

Building a course in an area not suitable for the game is the cardinal sin of the modern age developers. I would like to go swimming on the Moon, but it’s not practical, even if I could afford it.

Tom, the Heart of the Design Game is being one with the environment, not ripping the guts out of the land then restart from the bedrock upwards. Failing to produce a design that can live with its surroundings, that only survives as a course due to the honeycomb of underground  irrigation channels is not giving the golfer the real tools of the game that of being a natural course. Of Course money speak and boy does it speak loudly, well up to a few years ago.

Because there is a demand for a course does not make it right to build on a questionable 150 acres or thereabouts course that bears little relationship to the surrounding land or environment. Being selective lets the Client retains the quality and magic of the land. The added bonus would be that it reduces construction and maintenance costs giving what many Golfer like, an inexpensive but quality experience. In the end allowing the Designer to do his job and ‘Design’

Melvyn

PS Many recent photos show modern golf courses more or less surrounded by massive bunker or water complexes, yet from my limited experience and knowledge of the game, bunkers and water features are just a couple of a great number of semi natural or manmade hazards available in the Designer’s arsenal, why the over kill.

PPS No disrespect or criticism intended

[Mac Plumart]

-5,900 yards is ok and so is par 69.

-Also, (and on a totally different wave length) don't be afraid to design a "championship" course and show those pros how real golf should be played.  The latest Golf Digest talks about the USGA looking for more interesting tests of golf for its US Open.  Well, design an interesting championship course. 

-The approach shot to 9 at Askernish is excellent and do-able for the average Joe Golfer.  Very thrilling.  Please keep it as is.

-Please allow for some pin placements on top of the mound guarding the green at 16 at Askernish.  A ball can be stopped up there...trust me on that one.  And, of course, use the lower green as well...just allow them to mix up pin placements.

-Pacing is just as important as routing and perhaps highlights the routing.  Think about when the excitement will climax and how you want to build up to that climax and, conversely, how you want to ease the golfer off that climax.  Perhaps, this pacing will be different for the 5,900 yard course and the "championship" course.

-I'll shut up now!   

[John Kavanaugh]

Just like some guys can't hit a high fade with a four iron some of us can't putt.  I'd like to see you take into consideration the needs of the single digit handicap who can't putt.  A hole or two where ball striking is a premium and putting is a given.  A bowl within a bowl perhaps.  A 3 or 6 par 4.

[Tim Bert]

My mom always told me that you can't teach an old horse new tricks.

[Mark McKeever]

Tom,

Go tell the guys at Stonewall that the original back tee needs to be built on hole 17!   

Mark

[Adam Clayman]

Just like some guys can't hit a high fade with a four iron some of us can't putt.  I'd like to see you take into consideration the needs of the single digit handicap who can't putt.  A hole or two where ball striking is a premium and putting is a given.  A bowl within a bowl perhaps.  A 3 or 6 par 4.

Come on John, If ball striking is your premium, you should be able to hit it close to the hole? No?

Your suggestion would work well at the Villages. Because us guys need our egos stroked as well.

[Jud_T]

Just like some guys can't hit a high fade with a four iron some of us can't putt.  I'd like to see you take into consideration the needs of the single digit handicap who can't putt.  A hole or two where ball striking is a premium and putting is a given.  A bowl within a bowl perhaps.  A 3 or 6 par 4.

How about Pac Dunes #6?  Can't think of another Par 4 where you've got a short club in your hand on approach and ball striking is at such a premium...

[JNC Lyon]

I guess I'd like to see you (and other modern architects) build a golf course where bunkering is at an absolute minimum.  Many holes can be great with just one bunker or even no bunkers at all.  My advice: swing by Huntercombe on the way back from Paris.  I know you saw Royal Ashdown Forest back in the day, but Huntercombe was one of the very first quality inland courses in the London area.  It uses only 13 bunkers and shows how land contours, mounds, and hollows can be just as effective, if not more effective, than bunkers.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just like some guys can't hit a high fade with a four iron some of us can't putt.  I'd like to see you take into consideration the needs of the single digit handicap who can't putt.  A hole or two where ball striking is a premium and putting is a given.  A bowl within a bowl perhaps.  A 3 or 6 par 4.

How about Pac Dunes #6?  Can't think of another Par 4 where you've got a short club in your hand on approach and ball striking is at such a premium...

Come on?!? Pacific Dunes #6 requires a push fade drive, wedge and two putt.  That hole actually penalizes someone who draws the ball.

[Carl Nichols]

Just like some guys can't hit a high fade with a four iron some of us can't putt.  I'd like to see you take into consideration the needs of the single digit handicap who can't putt.  A hole or two where ball striking is a premium and putting is a given.  A bowl within a bowl perhaps.  A 3 or 6 par 4.

How about Pac Dunes #6?  Can't think of another Par 4 where you've got a short club in your hand on approach and ball striking is at such a premium...

Come on?!? Pacific Dunes #6 requires a push fade drive, wedge and two putt.  That hole actually penalizes someone who draws the ball.

Then you're just not a good enough ball striker???

[George Freeman]

That hole actually penalizes someone who draws the ball.

John - why is that a problem?

[Carl Nichols]

[double post deleted]

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the genius moves about Pacific Dunes is that it fools the average golfer into thinking they can play links golf.  If anything the course is too easy.  I believe I shot 71 in February on my last visit.  Whoop de doo.

Problem is I'm closing in on 60 faster than a dozen long johns disappears from my break room.  Easy is fine.

[John Kavanaugh]

That hole actually penalizes someone who draws the ball.

John - why is that a problem?

It's not a problem, just a theme on Doak courses.

[Simon Holt]

-Also, (and on a totally different wave length) don't be afraid to design a "championship" course and show those pros how real golf should be played.  The latest Golf Digest talks about the USGA looking for more interesting tests of golf for its US Open.  Well, design an interesting championship course. 

Mac,

He has, you have played it

Simon

[Garland Bayley]

I know you have been advising your associate to cut down on the bunkering. I would suggest you be a little more adamant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

In general, I don't think anyone on this site could teach you anything.

Certainly talent can't be taught and you're very talented.

On a specific project or a specific hole, it's not that someone could teach you something, but, they could conceive of a viable idea that you hadn't considered.

The "two heads are better than one" adage.

So, in general, I don't think anyone from this site could "teach" you anything.
They might have stylistic differences which could be employed and hole or feature concepts/ideas which could be used.

The other part of this issue, a critical part, which you left out, is....... would you listen to any of us ?

Which brings up a tangential question related to Sebonack.

What did you learn from Jack Nicklaus and what did he learn from you ?

And, in what manner or forum were the lessons learned ? 

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