THM Redan! TEPaul Div 7th Seed Old White #8 vs 10th Seed Rivermont #4

[Richard Choi]

Please vote for your favorite. You have till EOD Sunday. Anyone can vote, not just people who have played the holes. What I do ask of people who have played either of the holes is to advocate strongly (or speak against it) why you believe this hole deserves some love.

Happy voting!

[Richard Choi]

TEPaul Division, #7th Seed, Old White, Hole #8, 217 yards

Why should you vote for this hole?

Just LOOK at those dragon teeth!!! You gotta love a hole like that!

Seriously, I will say this hole has pretty much everything that I look for in a great Redan, a well tilted (front to back, right to left) green, significant front right mound to properly feed the ball to the green, enough fairway to encourage a ground game, and fearsome fronting bunker.

I probably seeded it too low, if anything.

[Richard Choi]

TEPaul Division, #10 Seed, Rivermont, Hole #4, 195 yards

From Kyle Christensen - I have been fortunate to play a lot of the great redan holes in the U.S. and I put this one up there with the best. Both times I have played this hole I have had the great fortune of putting it in the front bunker. I don't have any shots around the green but I could easily spend all day messing around on this hole from 10 yards and in.

[Mac Plumart]

Rivermont!!!!

[Jason Baran]

Old White, no question

[Ronald Montesano]

From the photos, it looks like OW.

[Mark McKeever]

Old White

[Bill Brightly]

Old White. I have never played Rivermont, but it looks like the traps on the right block the kick mound, is that correct?

[Mac Plumart]

Bill...I don't think they do.  The "pimple" in the middle of the green adds tremendous interest to the already exciting Redan style green.  If the pin is in the back and you don't funnel down there on your tee shot, you need to go high, low, or over the "pimple"...speed is key or you could be off the back.  Not that I've ever done that of course, but I've heard stories.   

On the Old White version, why put the "Dragon's Teeth" in there in front of a bunker?  Is that a hazard to protect a hazard?  If you are going to have a hazard like the "Dragon's Teeth", why not move them over to block the enterance to the green?  Frankly, I kind of like the look of them...but they don't make any technical sense.

[Bill Brightly]

It is interesting, both of these holes contain what I would call technical flaws. Looks like Old White has chocolate drops in front of the Redan bunker, I don't think any other MacRaynors have that feature on Redan holes. Have they always been there?

I'll stand by my comment that the two right bunkers on Rivermnot do not belong there, they protect the kickmound, IMO

[Kalen Braley]

Must be stiff competition, I'm surprised to see either of these holes in the bottom of the bracket.

The dragon teeth do it for me, and it looks like OW has a real kick plate to use.  My vote goes to OW as well.

[Phil McDade]

Old White, with the kicker plate/raised back portion of the green winning out; Rivermont's bunkers squeeze the run-in approach too much, for my eyes (haven't played either one...). The chocolate drops add an element of uniqueness to the hold that also distinguishes it.

Tough match-up early on; both look like solid holes.

[Andy Hodson]

I agree with Bill and Phil....those bunkers on Rivermont look like they block the right hand run up, IMO a very key feature of a Redan.

[David Kelly]

If you are going to have a hazard like the "Dragon's Teeth", why not move them over to block the enterance to the green?  Frankly, I kind of like the look of them...but they don't make any technical sense.

Why would you want to block the entrance to a redan green?

[PCCraig]

Old White

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Old White with pointed tits

[Scott Warren]

What I love about the top picture of the Old White hole is the way the slope of the green and the kickpad and its surrounds relate to the slope of the mountain behind and its summit right behind the kickpad. It looks fantastic.

[Sam Morrow]

Old White

[Robert Kimball]

Rivermont!!

Lots of interesting pins and club selections.  It is a lot of fun.

[Richard Choi]

11-2 Old White, tits and all.

[Mike Tanner]

Old White. The dragon's teeth look odd, but the rest of it just begs for the run-in approach.

[George Freeman]

Based solely on pictures, Old White.

[Mac Plumart]

If you are going to have a hazard like the "Dragon's Teeth", why not move them over to block the enterance to the green?  Frankly, I kind of like the look of them...but they don't make any technical sense.

Why would you want to block the entrance to a redan green?

Why would you want to block off the bunker?   

[Scott Warren]

Why would you want to block off the bunker? 

I'm confused, Mac.

On one hand you say you like them, but on the other hand you think they're pointless because they block the bunker.

And then your solution to all that is to move them right and block the entrance to the green?

David is more than capable of replying himself, but I do need to ask where he made any comment - let alone a favourable one - about those mounds blocking the bunker? As far as I can see he just asked why you would want to block the entrance to a Redan green. And why would you?

[Mac Plumart]

I'm sorry your so confused Scott.  I'm just goofing around.  I thought my emoticon made that clear. 

If you want to get worked up about it, fine.  I'm not.

In all sincerity, I like the look of the Dragon's Teeth.  Kind of quirky.  However, from a techincal point of view, I don't think they make sense.  I wasn't trying to suggest they should be move to guard the front of the green, I was trying to say that moving them over makes more "sense" than blocking off a hazard with a hazard.

But like I said before, I'm not getting worked up about it...but it appears you might be.  I don't think it is worth it, Rivermont is getting beat 11 to 2 (or something like that).  We can move on to another hole that is more highly contested.