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ANTHONYPIOPPI

I can't imagine too many of the the famous architects reading this and dealing with it in a mature manner, unless you consider crying, wailing, foot stomping, yelling and sobbing balled up in a corner of a dark rook, mature.

http://anthonypioppi.blogspot.com/2011/05/minikahda-layout-eviscerated-by.html

Anthony
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 09:31:58 AM by Anthony Pioppi »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
That's a funny criticism ... the one player says if he had played with only three clubs [brassie, mashie, and putter] but armed with the understanding of the course he had at the end of play, he would have shot many strokes lower.  Doesn't that mean he made bad decisions and wasn't prepared?

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Tom:

You're right. The criticism is particularly harsh and I wonder if it had to do with the event being moved away from the East and that causing bitterness. Look at the Bendelow bunker in the photo, it looks pretty good. Ross, in his 1916 renovation did not throw out all of Bendelow's work. He kept bunker location and greens.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Well, a great player one, sort of disputing the contention that any kind of player could win, no?

Anthony, what makes you say that tour courses aren't similarly vilified today?  Too short, can't always hit driver, etc.?  Granted, pros usually lay off USGA courses but do lambast the typical tour venue, especially the TPC courses.

I know how Pete Dye responds - he apologizes for nothing and says everything is just the way he wanted it.  Don't know about CC.  I suspect you may be referring mostly to the Jones crew, since they usually defended (with detail, a mistake Pete doesn't make!) the critiques of their tournament designs, a la, Rees recently?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not sure if gca's have evolved, but gca critics seem to be disproving the theory of evolution daily! 

When I see comments like this, it reminds me of the short term nature of human memory.  We didn't have centerline bunkers, reverse slope greens, ground game, etc. etc. etc. in the Golden Age to nearly the degree that some here romantically assume.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anthony,

I've seen references that said Bendelow "adjusted" and "refined" the course after Clive Jaffray and Bob Taylor added the second nine in 1907, but I don't know precisely what that means. Is there any more detailed source of the work Bendelow did at Minikahda?

As for the criticism following the 1916 open, you've probably seen this information, but I thought I'd post it here. The course was stoutly defended by both Chick Evens (understandably) and Donald Ross (also understandably, since he'd just been employed by the club.) First Evans:

"Now a word as to the course: It is a championship course with a good golfing swing to the land, neither too severe nor too gentle; and I repeat the words of many other contestants when I say the Open championship has never been played on a better conditioned course. In my whole experience I have never known the ground 10 or 15 yards in front of the green so nearly perfect. One could pitch one's chip shot on a certain spot and it would run as expected. The greens, too, blended delightfully into the fairgreens. The grass on tees, greens and fairgreens was superb. The tees were excellent and always faced the line of play. One had to be very careful of his line at Minikahda. It was a course that rewarded a man who kept straight. There are swings in the ground that must be allowed for, and different greens tip different ways. Placing the shots to conform with the break of the ground is one of the chief difficulties at Minikahda.

"The course permitted only a medium amount of roll even to half-topped shots. Some of us said it was an easy course, but it did not work out that way when we came to play it. It was easy to count up a low score but it wasn't there when played out. The par, 72, was the same as on the last two course where the National Open was played. Minikahda was not unlike Baltusrol in some respects. There were the blind, the semi-blind holes and the unprotected greens. There were straight shots up lines of trees, and easier ones in a grass-lined fairway. There were shots uphill and downhill, and Baltusrol had its freak eighth, and Minikahda its freak third, and no one who entered at both courses could say that the pitch at the Northern course was easier than the second shot pitch at the Eastern one."

Ross was interviewed Aug. 31, 1916, by the Minneapolis Tribune:

Charges made by Eastern professionals that the Minikahda greens were “absolutely rotten” during the Open and “Chick” Evans won the title by putting blindly were ridiculed by Mr. Ross as jealousy on the part of a few disgruntled pros, who begrudged Evans the honor.

Mr. Ross visited Minneapolis a short time before the Open and went over the Minikahda course. He declared last night that at that time the greens were in the finest possible shape.

It was stated by one of the pros that the reason for the poor greens was they were made up of many kinds of grass and that one was totally different from the other.

“Bosh,” was Mr. Ross’s answer. He said that the grasses found at Minikahda were of the best variety and they excel that used on many of the famous Eastern courses.

 
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Rick:

We could find no photos or drawing of the pre-Bendelow 18 but considering he was hired less than a year after it opened, I think he did more than just tweak. Jaffey, in his memoir at the Minnesota Historical Society, never mentions that he helped design the original 9 and the added 9.


Getting back to my original point, I'm wondering how Arnold Palmer and his people would react if the Boston Globe pointed out that Palmer's original work at TPC Boston was an abject failure necessitating over $3 million in improvements since it opened fewer than 10 years ago. Considering Palmer's people cancelled a magazine profile piece I had with him because I questioned the most recent work at Bay Hill on my blog, I think they would be out for blood if the TPC Boston story was ever written.

Anthony


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rick

The unnamed pro quoted in Anthony's blog is talking more about architecture, variety of shots etc whereas Evans and Ross both defend the course purely on its condition. Personally I would tend to take more notice of the pro's comments as condition is temporary whereas the layout is not (at least until the next gca gets the contract to remodel the course  ;) )

Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1

Getting back to my original point, I'm wondering how Arnold Palmer and his people would react if the Boston Globe pointed out that Palmer's original work at TPC Boston was an abject failure necessitating over $3 million in improvements since it opened fewer than 10 years ago. Considering Palmer's people cancelled a magazine profile piece I had with him because I questioned the most recent work at Bay Hill on my blog, I think they would be out for blood if the TPC Boston story was ever written.




Anthony:

I suspect they would, and rightly so.  Twenty years ago, a hostile criticism of a golf course wouldn't have caused much concern.  But today, if it comes up on the first page of a Google search about an architect, it would be a disaster for business -- whether it was merited or not!

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rick

The unnamed pro quoted in Anthony's blog is talking more about architecture, variety of shots etc whereas Evans and Ross both defend the course purely on its condition. Personally I would tend to take more notice of the pro's comments as condition is temporary whereas the layout is not (at least until the next gca gets the contract to remodel the course  ;) )

Niall

Niall,

I agree that the pro was talking mainly about architecture, though there was the comment about preferring courses where you needed to tap, rather than bash, a 10-foot putt.

But I think Evans's comments address the architectural complaints in several areas: "...good golfing swing to the land...a course that rewarded a man who kept it straight...swings in the ground that must be allowed for, and different greens tip different ways. Placing the shots to conform with the break of the ground is one of the chief difficulties at Minikahda...blind, the semi-blind holes and the unprotected greens. There were straight shots up lines of trees, and easier ones in a grass-lined fairway. There were shots uphill and downhill..."

Sounds like architecture to me.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 03:06:13 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anthony's quote is taken a little out of context because it was a pretty long article and 'Bunker Hill' explores both sides of the arguement, and explains in the article that is no shame in having Evans, Ouimet or Travers (the Amateurs who won three out of the last four Opens) win on your golf course. All three were extraordinary golfers - pro or amateur.

Bunker Hill was based in Boston and I suspect the pro was a pro from Boston too, or had a Boston connection. The three most likely candidates are Mike Brady, Alex Ross or Alex Campbell. Ross was working in Detroit and Campbell in Balitimore, but they were long time pros in Boston. You would think Alex Ross, being Donld's brother, would be the least likely, but I think it was probably him based on his praise for Brae Burn, where he used to work, and his poor play during the championship. He may not been aware of his brothers involvement or maybe he was aware...

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
At least now we know when Bomb & Gouge started... :)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I suppose it's not important how you design, it's important how you handle criticism on how you design. Thanks Bradley :)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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