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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
I know that Nicklaus had a wealth of physical talent.  That being said, there is still an outside chance that he is the leading expert in the subject who ever lived. I would put my money on him over any of the 1500 posters on this site, past or present.  So, prove me wrong and tell us what you could teach Jack Nicklaus.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Now nothing at all, but 20-25 years ago I think Nicklaus needed to take the average golfer into consideration more when building his golf courses.  Coming so close to his competitive days as maybe the greatest golfer whoever lived I don't think the 5-18 handicap golfer was much on his mind and it shows in the difficulty of a lot of his courses at that time.

I think he has done a lot better in recent years and maybe age, diminishing skills, the knowledge of other architects' work and exposure to many more recreational golfers has influenced him.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jim Nugent

I could teach him nothing.  But there are some things I think he should do:

1.  Route a course by himself.  Take it through construction to finished product, with him on point.  Actually, I think he should do this more than once. 

2.  See other new courses, by modern architects.  He said that working with Doak gave him a new (better) perspective on greens, IIRC.  Maybe just maybe he would get still other new (better) perspectives if he kept up with what other top architects are doing. 

John, why do you think Jack is the leading expert on golf course architecture who ever lived, past or present? 

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd try to instill in his approach to architecture and development what I learned from Tim Weiman, that "people want to play more, not pay more" and to seek moderation and efficiency in design and construction. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0

John, why do you think Jack is the leading expert on golf course architecture who ever lived, past or present?
 

Because no one who ever lived understood how to use the architecture presented to him better. I believe he is such a genius of the genre that he could think five holes ahead much like a chess master.  Recently we have listened to bloggers say that Bubba doesn't get it, children say that Hogan doesn't get it but no one say that Jack doesn't get it.  I wanted to give them a chance.

There is a chance that Nicklaus had such physical talent that his ability to win tournaments was as much a function of luck as architectural genius.  Doubt it.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think many on here (not me) could teach him the basics of the profession: how to operate a bulldozer or excavator, how to lay drainage correctly ...

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ulrich,

Many would argue that running a bulldozer or laying drain pipe is the construction profession, not design. That said, I was sent out to do most of those things, only so I would have the authority to tell a contractor when he was doing it wrong.  But I think Jack focuses on design elements more and leaves details like that to others, which we can also argue is best use of his high dollar time. 

For what its worth, years ago a construction company guy told me that Jack really did understand cut and fill, once looking over his associates plans and commenting that if "we lowered that fw five feet, wouldn't the dirt balance better with the same effect?"  That may be more important than actually running the dozer.

I don't think I could teach Jack anything.  As to making courses easier, he learned that from experience.

Personal Jack gca story, when I was President of ASGCA, I asked and Jack graciously agreed to present to our members at the meeting (at Pinehurst that year) about how to play No. 2 and other architectural things. I was warned by his staff not to suggest that he ever copied anything, but as moderator, I couldn't resist, hoping to stir discussion.  Jack was of course, very gracious, and said they never copied anything, but rather took parts of inspiration of holes and meshed them together in their own new form.

I was actually a bit disappointed in some of his "How I play P2" comments.  Most of it was "Well, you want to avoid the bunkers".  Pete Dye also agreed to talk to us that year and his comments were more along the line of the shots he wanted to force the players to make, whereas Jack focused mostly on the shots not to make.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,

What would you expect Itzhak Perlman to say if you asked him how to play the violin?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

You are probably one of those guys who asks the doctor if you will be able to play the piano after surgery....even though you never played before, right?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
No, I am just saying why would Jack bother to tell a group of listeners about shots they can not execute.  It makes more sense to tell them where they can't hit it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

Well, his audience was a bunch of qualified golf course architects, not just hacks, so I think he would know they were interested in that kind of stuff.  I got the impression that Jack just thinks that playing good defense wins championships.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
No, I am just saying why would Jack bother to tell a group of listeners about shots they can not execute.  It makes more sense to tell them where they can't hit it.

Well, it turns out that Perlman actually does talk about playing the violin quite frequently (he runs a summer school for musicians on Long Island) and he does 'bother to tell' his students about 'shots they can't execute'.  I think its called teaching.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff
A note to Itzhak isn't the same as a note to your music teacher.
The same way a shot to Jack isn't like a shot to you.
They are art

Chris
I don't think Itzhak can teach a note to someone
They have to feel their own note

I'll guess almost anyone can teach Jack to listen
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Since Doak is one of the 1500 the premise is flawed but nonetheless provocative. Clearly Jack has been trying to emulate what he saw during their collaboration and told his team as much.  I wouldn't be able to teach him a thing but hopefully, with a few well asked questions you coukd get him to think about something. Mine would be about his New course, built in 87' and why he didn't get inspired by it's principles more. At least until post Doak at Sebonack. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Before responding, I'd have to know what he learned from Tom Doak

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nothing.  He's forgotten more than I'll ever know.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,

What would you expect Itzhak Perlman to say if you asked him how to play the violin?

Do you think Itzhak Perlman can write better violin concertos than Tchaikovsky did? Imho, that's a better analogy than any you're trying to make.

I sure don't think I could teach Jack about anything golf-related. But, just as Jack dedicated himself from an early age to be a great player, there are posters on here who have been similarly dedicated to golf course architecture. While he was working on his swing with Grout, they were working on their designs. Jack's ability to outplay them doesn't necessarily mean he could out design them.

John, do you think Danica Patrick can build a better road than you?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
George,

I am saying that through his proven skill as a winner Jack has proven he is an expert on golf course architecture.  Perhaps the greatest that ever lived.

Danica knows more about building a race track than I could learn in a book.  I once completed an airport job and had the runway to myself.  Thought it would be fun to take Shivas's favorite modern sedan out and pump it up.  I freaked before I peaked.  I can not and will never understand the true meaning of 200 mph driving next to walls.  Guess what, I had hot wheels growing up to boot.


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
In my opinion, we can all learn something from someone else...even Jack. That's not saying I know more about architecture than Jack, as obviously I would learn a whole lot more from speaking with him than he would from me. However, one only has to point to his collaboration with Doak on Long Island to see how that changed his design product. Just because he won 20 majors doesn't mean he knows everything about golf course architecture and wouldn't benefit from advancing his knowledge on the subject.
H.P.S.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Danica knows more about building a race track than I could learn in a book.

Interesting perspective. Do you think she'd get the details right the first time? How much to incline curves? How tight to make corners?

Does the fact that most of the top ten courses were built by non-champion golfers illustrate anything?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
George,

It will be interesting to see what the top ten rankings will look like in 100 years, or what the typical tournament rotation will look like in 100 years.  I suspect it will change, and that courses designed by the likes of JN will be a much larger component of the tournament rotations and top 100 lists.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Danica knows more about building a race track than I could learn in a book.

Interesting perspective. Do you think she'd get the details right the first time? How much to incline curves? How tight to make corners?

Does the fact that most of the top ten courses were built by non-champion golfers illustrate anything?

You asked if I thought she would do a better job than me, I said yes.

The fact that non-champion critics award non-champion architects illustrates nothing.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
It depends what you are calling golf course architecture. I suspect half of the 64 golf corse architects know more about golf course architecture than Jack Nicklaus, golf course architecture is the whole thing from pen to finish and all the encompasses getting there. Jack's knowledge of understanding of construction techniques, grasses, plants, percolation rates of rootzone materials, planning procedure and redtapeystuff is not going to be as high as many 'one man bands'. Jack has an orchestra behind him, he can rely on his team of course, equally JN is no dumbo. If you talk about the pure holes and the sharp end design of how individual holes might play then its down to opinion if you like what he does or do not. I do not think that bit is the rocket science though, anyone can draw holes and if you have a scaled rule place the bunkers in sites to test certain carries that offer better lines for the next. The real skills are making the IT WORK IN THE GROUND.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0

The fact that non-champion critics award non-champion architects illustrates nothing.

John,

I have a friend who can't help but add, "and everything", when speaking. He does it without fail, usually at the end of his sentences. For whatever reason, I thought of him when reading your statement above.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike Nuzzo,

While I don't know what you were trying to say in your first pp, I think you may have hit the nail on the head on your second - with Jack's intelligence and golf knowledge, the only thing that could really have held him back was a refusal to listen to others who do know some small iota about architecture that he may not have considered.

I only say that because I believe we all need to listen more than talk to learn any subject, and that big ego is a detriment to good design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach