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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Speaking of MacKenzie. ;)

Both Jack and Alister have written books on golf architecture. I would find it incredulous if someone could read them both and conclude that Jack was more of an "expert" than Alister.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0

 I've seen virtuosos of the electric guitar play extended, long-winded guitar solos that bored the living crap out of me, but I'm awed by the knowlege of guitar playing it took to actually play them. I just don't want to actually have to LISTEN to them.


An excellent analogy, Kirk.   Is Jack Nicklaus the Steve Vai of golf architecture?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 04:50:20 PM by Tom Yost »

Jim Eder

I never thought I would see Steve Vai on this site.  Terrific stuff!!

Oh I would be so happy to have either JN's or Vai's talent even though I am with Tom and can't really sit through Steve's music (for the most part). BUt no doubt these folks have more talent/knowledge than I.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have absolutely no business getting involved in this thread for a whole variety of reasons.  In fact, the one JN course I have played many times and really enjoy, Old Works, almost refutes the observation I am about to make.  From what I’ve read and seen in photos, I’d personally like to see JN do an affordable, fun, and low budget course.  I may very well be wrong in this observation, but it seems to me that his courses must reach a level in design, construction budget, maintenance, eye candy, and, of course, design fee before his firm would show much interest in being involved.  A project must live up to these lofty standards of execution before Mr. Nicklaus would put his name on it in the past.  Maybe that has changed more recently with what seems like more scaled-down, natural designs like Dismal.  I don’t really know.
   
From my lowly position in the golf cosmos, golfers don’t want or need a lot more of these golf Zanadus or pleasure palaces.  They do indeed “want to play more, not pay more.”  Old Works is rather an outlier or a pound mutt in his portfolio.  It did cost something like $25M to construct, a cost borne by a petrochemical giant to mitigate the site’s Superfund status, but there are some really interesting social and philosophical aspects in the evolution of the course since it opened.  The basic premise was to use a beautiful golf landscape to clean up a toxic industrial wasteland and town dump.  After the construction was complete, the course was donated to a dying western mining town of about 6,000 people and became the primary focal point for attracting much need tourist dollars.  The fees to play have always been affordable to all (for many years less than $50), and it is fun to play.  I could go on about the social, environmental, or philosophical aspects, but you get the idea:  it’s a rather unique project.  A Jack Nicklaus signature brand build for and played by average Joes.  Well worth checking out and a mind boggling comparison in contrasts to it’s beautiful neighbor, RCCC, a few miles down the road.  A brief glance at the architects’ perceived body of work, who out there would guess that the “people’s course” was a Nicklaus design and RCCC, a billionaire’s track for his millionaire pals, a Doak?  Life, and our own biases, are rife with surprises.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dave,

Most of Doaks' courses out here in the west are that way.

Pac Dunes - Resort, but most golfers excluded based on price
Old Mac - Ditto
Ballyneal  - Private
RCCC - Private
Common Ground - A true public
Tumble Creek - Private
Stone Eagle - Private
Apache Stronghold - Resort, I'm not sure if its open anymore.

Restoration
Pasa - Semi private and cost restrictive.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...
Apache Stronghold - Resort, I'm not sure if its open anymore.
...

Last info on this site is that it is still open. Although resort, costs are very reasonable, so available all. I believe people have written that you can play all day for $100.

The question is whether it is still a Doak, as it seems they may be filling bunkers to save expense.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dave M;  the problem is that most of the architects don't decide what is being built.  They get hired by owners.  I know that Tom D. and his colleagues have donated some time in Detroit to building a low cost practice facility which I believe is called Midnight Golf.  The Rawls course is a college course.  I only use Tom as am example; I am sure there are others who have or will do the same.  But they are independent contractors hired on a job by job basis.  When course developers, either private or public, decide to build the type of courses you are asking for, I am sure that Tom and Jack Nicklaus will be there.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom, that's kind of what I was going for. But think of all the people who go to Steve Vai concerts, and love it. They aren't wrong. And neither am I.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I could teach Jack the use of restraint.  Every hole on the golf course does not need to be a ball buster where only a low single digit capper will have any kind of regular success.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
I could teach Jack not to phone it in and cash a paycheck by selling his name for courses like the Bear in Traverse City...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Having just spent the day at Belmont Country Club in Belmont, Mass, I would say that Jack and every other architect alive today could learn something by studying the simplicity of a course like that. The layout makes great use of the rolling terrain. Fantastic variety. Not too busy visually. Only one weak hole on the entire course (16). Maybe the most underrated, unheralded, under-the-radar course in New England. Should be in every conversation about the best courses in the Northeast.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kalen,

I did not mean to criticize the architects.  They must go where the work is and the clients that can pay for it.  I don’t mean to criticize the clients.  They go where the best market exist and where the money is likely to come from.  My point, if there is any, is that golf sort of lost its way in the midst of the go-go development of high end properties that sort of forgot about the game and the majority of players.  JN cashed in, and good for him and his people.  No problem there.  However, as we’ve seen, that model was a fad, not grounded in core values, nor destined to endure for the betterment of the game, and now that we are in a period of readjustment, of re-evaluation of what golf needs to be to survive, I doubt that the fad is relavent.  I always ask the question:  is the game THAT much different on a goat track than on a golf Zanadu?  I don’t think so.  OTOH, would I like to be raking in $150 fees for my course?  Absolutely, yes.  I could do so much with the dough.   But would it really be all that much different from following the ex-current fad that I could not sustain in a difficult economy?  No.  I’d have to get back to basics, where I continue to exist.

You’re right, of course.   Don’t blame the architects; don’t blame the developers.  We’re all just trying to make a buck.  We’re all in this biz to do what we do.  But, in our heart of hearts, we so this because it is fun.  That has always been the bottom line:  we do this because it is fun and we all like those golfers who agree.

SL, ditto.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
John
Your fishing, I almost bit early this morning when there were only five responses but I thought I would see where it went during the day. It seems to me what your trying to defend, should have had a different wording in your titlle. Something along the lines, what could you teach Jack Nicklaus about the understanding of golf course architecture which is one of many elements of golf design or factor that make up a qualified archtiect. His understanding from a players point of view obviously can not be surpassed by anyone on this 1500 site or probably by any one alive for that matter. No arguement there but if you wanna talk about all the facets of golf course architecture that goes into making a good Architect, that is a different story. First we would have to define just how much he knows, because the market perception he has created I beleive could be far from the reality. There are a few on this site that have somewhat of an idea how extensive or limited that reality is but out of repect for JN you will never get them to comment unless they believe his overall knowledge and qualifications are far superior to everyone on this site. That would be a difficult to sell to many!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 10:01:00 PM by Randy Thompson »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Prior to the 2008 Ryder Cup at Valhalla, Nicklaus reworked several holes.  During the renovation, five or six greens were replaced.  Rather than stick with the "buried elephant" approach that Jack liked when Valhalla was originally constructed, the Nicklaus team built the new greens in a different style. These have much smaller contours and are clearly out of character with the rest of the greens on the course.  I don't think the new greens are necessarily bad by themselves, but the switch of styles within the round makes it feel like a different architect came in to do some disjointed work.  Perhaps that's the case, as I have no idea the extent of Jack's involvement in the renovations.

It seems that Nicklaus would benefit by visiting courses that have poorly evolved over the years.  It should be possible for an architect to add bunkers, lengthen holes, or even replace greens without inducing head-scratching reactions from players.  Especially if he is the original architect.

Could I teach Nicklaus this?  Probably not, as I'm sure he would not listen to me.  But someone on the sites possibly could, depending on his willingness to learn.  Jack Nicklaus is not omniscient. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Everyone thinks they can teach the other something about golf architecture.  It's all unregulated opinion....my club tennis pro tells me he knows more about golf architecture than I do about tennis...everybody thinks this way...
Nicklaus Design is a marketing company from plans to finish....so never relate his time or fees to golf design as much the value his name has brought him through playing ability.  JN is an extremely intelligent person and he has surrounded himself with very good architects that know their business....so you guys are not teaching them anything....they know how to build a cheaper course if they needed too but they don't need to....if you look at winners on the tour they are either so stupid( no names but you know them... that they have no idea of the pressure involved with a three foot putt for a major championship and thus they are not affected by the pressure OR they are of such intelligence that they can think their way thru such situations(Ben Hogan, JN, TWatson, TWoods etc..)  The average guy thinks too much to function in these situations constantly....I mean how many normal guys could ground their club in a waste area..sandy area..miss a putt for the PGA and be back in contention the next week...( in football it is called " looking in his eyes and knowing nobody is home") 

the thing about JN....he is not in line to try to learn the trend...he sets the trend...  for instance.. when he developed tiered diagonal greens he was telling the golfer to hit it the correct distance whether a little left or right and he would reward you with a flatter putt where so many of the strategies before that time were to place the ball under the hole instead of hole high....

Adam,
As for someone on this site teaching JN...Jim Lipe is on this site....I have liked every JN course I have played that JL has done....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

Though I am not a fan of Jack the architect, he was and always will be my favorite golfer. So, I have no desire to engage in any bashing.

But, like Dick Daley suggested, I wish Jack would take a look at what Tom Doak did in Denver with Common Ground and build a few courses like it.
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
John:

None of us here could teach Jack Nicklaus anything about how to play the game, or about "shot values" for a player like himself.  I do think that the key to his success as a golfer was in understanding when NOT to "go for it" on the course and let others come back to him instead.  He never attempted a shot unless he was 100% comfortable that he could pull it off.  He didn't always win that way, but he was nearly always close as a result.

The problem is with those (including, sometimes, Jack) who believe that's all there is to golf course architecture.

I've been given credit here and elsewhere for teaching Jack some things at Sebonack, but I don't really believe he learned much from us, other than maybe to give his associates a little more chance to contribute.  He often described minimalism as a "look", rather than an approach; and his entire staff were always focused with putting a bunker at exactly the "right" yardage, which is pretty hard to reconcile with taking the ground as you find it.

I think we did remind him there was more than one way to skin the cat ... that you could use things like internal green contours to make the course difficult.  That was one of those things he knew before I was born, but he seemed to have forgotten, because he was always so focused on working from his own design thoughts and so rarely goes to look at someone else's courses, or even the great old courses. 

In truth, the one thing that Jack might have learned from me at Sebonack was about my process of how to route a golf course -- just as I've learned from watching Bill Coore's process in Florida the past 18 months.  But, I did that routing several months before Jack and I met, and in all the conversations we had over the course of the job, neither Jack nor any of his associates ever asked me how I came up with it.  Maybe they figured it out on their own.

Don_Mahaffey

I don't think the greats in any sport, art, or profession ever allowed complacency to settle in. Jerry Rice has often said his number 1 motivation was fear of failure, thus he was always working to be better. JN didn't become the greatest player in the history of the game by being satisfied with his game. My guess is he was always trying to improve.
I'm be very surprised if JN didn't feel the same way now about his businesses and I'll bet he's always trying to get better, to learn more. Now, who he will learn from or is willing to listen to I have no idea.
Although I don't toil in the same rarefied air as the greats, one thing I have learned is you never know where the next great idea may come from. The key is being able to process the input with an open mind regarding the source. I actually believe JN could learn something from this site or from a poster or two here.

Do the other professionals who frequent here only participate to talk about their work or try and impress us with their knowledge? It seems some do, but I also get the feeling some are always, consciously or not, looking for more knowledge.
 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,
Stokely Carmichael once said:  "knowledge is power".....  agree with using this site to find info but one needs to know enough to have a good filter....I mean..come on...we are down to having a thread where guys are considering naming their kids after ODG's...that is the ultimate in obtaining true dorkism....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don_Mahaffey

Mike, in the midst of all the trash is the occasional snippet of treasure.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, in the midst of all the trash is the occasional snippet of treasure.

I suppose that this all depends on where one is starting from.  For some, learning that an architect places considerable weight on how wind patterns affect a windy site in his routing, green construction, and placement of hazards is a great revelation.  To others, it is simply a given.  What for some is sifting for the proverbial needle in the haystack is someone else's happening on the honey-pot.  It may be why Newbies are so often bubbly and complimentary, while the old guys are cynical and irascible.

Me, I learn a lot from people like you, and I am very happy to live in a world populated by the likes of both Jack Nicklaus and Tom Doak.  I hope you all continue to work with faith in your visions.  There is still lots of room for variety in this big world of golf.   

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,
Stokely Carmichael once said:  "knowledge is power"..... 
Yes, a lot of people have quoted Francis Bacon.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,
Stokely Carmichael once said:  "knowledge is power"..... 
Yes, a lot of people have quoted Francis Bacon.

You mean Thomas Hobbes' circa 1658.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,
Stokely Carmichael once said:  "knowledge is power"..... 
Yes, a lot of people have quoted Francis Bacon.

You mean Thomas Hobbes' circa 1658.


No, Hobbes was another one who was quoting Bacon who said 61 years earlier in Meditationes Sacræ, "Nam & ipsa scientia potestas est’" which means "And thus (or also) knowledge itself is power."
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
lol