Why not a dry moat ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

My water hazard threads got me thinking about the difficulty in crafting water hazards that significantly impact play, vis a vis their proximity to greens, fairways and playing corridors and the recent, difficult DEP regulations.

So, instead of an active water hazard, why not craft a fairly deep dry moat, to serve a similar purpose ?

It could serve as a cross feature for drives or second shots on Par 5's, a feature fronting a green.

Golfers in the dry moat would have their vision obstructed by the fronting bank.
Some balls would be on the back bank, some of the front bank and some on the floor of the dry berm.
Grass height could vary depending on the pitch of the banks and intent of the feature. (short hole vs long hole)

Has anyone seen dry moats, naturally incorporated or specifically desinged to be used as an effective architectural feature ?

Why aren't there more of them ?

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

Pasatiempo has these, I think many would call these moats, "barranca" for lack of a better word.  I think they work pretty well because no one wants to go in them, but its not a score killer as one can still recover for them.

Wine Valley has something similar to this on a few of its holes.  I've dubbed them "sand rivers" and I think they work pretty well in serving a similar purpose.

[Alex Miller]

On my highschool's home course we had a dry moat. Hole 10 at Rolling Hills Country Club in CA. It's a 330 yard hole with a moat crossing the fairway ~220 off the tee. It's not a great hole, but the dry moat is an excellent hazard. It has grass banks and is about 5 feet deep and 6 feet across. It's a very good hazard.

[Joe Bausch]

Not a great hole, IMO, but just recently I played a course (White Oaks CC in south Jersey) with something similar to a dry moat.  It is about 250 yards off the tee on a short par 4.  A couple of pics:

[JLahrman]

Could it be as simple as a feature such as this, on the 10th hole at The Golf Club?  Full disclosure:  I have not played the course, this was taken and posted by David Whitmer.

This is not a full moat, more of a rise.  And it certainly is not high enough to impede vision, although it could certainly produce an interesting lie.  But by building up the bank to be several feet instead of the one foot rise we see here, and building an equivalent bank a few feet back, a dry moat effect could easily be achieved.

[Andy Troeger]

Quite a few desert courses uses dry washes that sound like they fit the intent of the thread. Some of them are more recoverable than others and are more effective than others. You actually have to play some of those shots like bunkers, but they can work pretty well especially when used like diagonal water hazards/creeks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I forgot to include # 2 at Pebble Beach as another example

[Brad LeClair]

Pat, is #10 @ BpB a good example of a "dry moat"?

[Bill Brightly]

The old racing track that still runs through Somerset Hills is the best example I can think of. It works beautifully.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, head west young man!

California's best courses are loaded with dry moat defenses. Unfortunately some are kikuyu-floored (Riviera) but there are lots of arroyos, dry washes, barrancas, etc.

I suggest a visit to Black Mesa in Santa Fe, NM.  Baxter Spann utilized these features to great advantage.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, is #10 @ BpB a good example of a "dry moat"?

Could be, but, I think of that as more of a gully or depression rather than a more narrow, clearer defined moat like structure.

Bill Brightly,

I"ve always liked the embanked race track feature at Somerset Hills and Piping Rock

[jeffwarne]

Palmetto's 14th hole features Crazy Creek a dry moat now filled with bermuda gras, formerly more rugged and sandy

[David Kelly]

I can think of a number of examples in Southern California. A dry creek bed bisects the first hole at Rustic Canyon lengthways  and then runs in front of the green.  The 6th & 8th holes at Los Angeles CC North have dry barrancas in play and the 1st and 12th holes at Rivera do as well.  The 12th at Rivera is marked as a hazard but you can get lucky and play out of it but the other examples are all through the green I think.

[Bill_McBride]

The really cool thing about these "dry moats" is you can get your ass down there and attempt a recovery shot!

[Jason Baran]

Pat - not exactly what you were referencing, but the dry moat/potential recovery concept is exactly what I love about #10 at Creek.  For those who are unfamiliar, the hole is right on the Long Island Sound, and has a diagonal stream running south of the fairway.  Similar to a cape hole, the more you try to bite off on the tee shot, the more the water potentially comes into play.  However, the difference in water between high tide and low tide is probably 5 feet.  So when the tide is low, you can recover from the beach on all but the worst shots (similar to a dry moat).  However, when the tide is high, anything short of the fairway is dead.  It adds an interesting, unpredictable element of nature to the strategy of the hole.

[Ed Oden]

The old racing track that still runs through Somerset Hills is the best example I can think of. It works beautifully.

Palmetto's 14th hole features Crazy Creek a dry moat now filled with bermuda gras, formerly more rugged and sandy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

Great photos

Thanks

[Chris_Blakely]

I just played a course in Ohio Veterans Memorial Park (Kenton, OH) where the original 9 hole course incorporated dry moats on two holes.  I enjoyed the feature.  The dry moats were around the greens and gave them an island green effect.  One of the greens had the green falling off on two sides into the dry moat. 

Chris

[Bill Brightly]

The really cool thing about these "dry moats" is you can get your ass down there and attempt a recovery shot!

I can't remember the hole # at Somerset Hills, but I do remember hitting a tee shot on a dogleg a tad too long and a tad too far right, and ended up in the race track. I had a 5 iron distance but needed 8 iron to clear the edge. Very cool design!

[Ed Oden]

The really cool thing about these "dry moats" is you can get your ass down there and attempt a recovery shot!

I can't remember the hole # at Somerset Hills, but I do remember hitting a tee shot on a dogleg a tad too long and a tad too far right, and ended up in the race track. I had a 5 iron distance but needed 8 iron to clear the edge. Very cool design!

Bill, it is the par 5 sixth hole at Somerset Hills (see my picture above).  The race track is about 180 yards from the green and must be cleared on the second shot.

[Sean_A]

I very much like the idea of deep impressions not filled with sand or water.  The ones which mimic a fairly wide stream with reasonably steep banks are particularly attractive.  One of my favourites is a path leading to the beach/maintenance path used very well at West Cornwall.  Its a drivable par 4, but this little dandy must be taken on and its completely blind from the tee.


From the tee


Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Is the depression surrounding the Island hole at Royal Ashdown Forest a stream or dry?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are quite a few dry moats at Royal Ashdown Forest, often taking the place of bunkers. Ditto at Berkhamsted, another bunkerless course. Does the Valley of Sin count?

[Jim_Coleman]

Do Oakmont's "ditches" qualify?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do Oakmont's "ditches" qualify?

NO,  They run parallel to the lines of play and are deemed water hazards.