Maximum forced carry from a back tee

[Jason Topp]

What is the maximum forced carry requirement that is approrpriate from the back tees?

On a cold, windy and rainy day I played a practice round from the back tees at the site of a qualifying event for a state amateur match play tournament.  On four different holes I hit good drives that carried creeks at the beginning of the fairway by less than ten yards. On another hole, I could not make it to the fairway under the conditions.  For most of these holes, there was no bail out option other than trying to land a ball on a forward tee surrounded by unmaintained prairie.

For the qualifier itself, the weather was warmer and the carries were not a problem. 

From Google Earth, the carries appear to be in the 200 yard range.  I am not sure such a required carry is unreasonable for someone who wants to play in a state level tournament, even into the wind on a 40 degree day.  Nonetheless, I know the carries alone would have eliminated at least one competitor who did qualify. (not me).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Designing Colbert Hills, we set a max carry of 200 to save turf at the outset.  Maybe a little more downwind, less into the wind.  One day Colbert was there in a north wind (not prevailing) and couldn't carry to the proposed turf area, so we cut the max back to 180.

Colbert wasn't long, but then, neither is most of the field and you kind of have to consider the shortest hitters, along with wind variables, etc.  You cannot always rely on the wind staying the same all day, or an enlightened crew setting the markers up when wind is against.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Tough question because should wind patterns change then a longer distance becomes problematic. Frankly, if someone is really a legitimate player and is on the back tee -- I see no reason why 250 yards (at sea level) is used. But - and I emphasize the "but" it depends upon the nature of the field of players who generally will play such tip tee distance. I am aware of what weather can do when things change. But if you were to play the 12th at BB -- you would find the carry distance over the frontal bunkers is in the range I mentioned.

Want a really tough hole for carry. Try the 3rd at Pound Ridge (NY) from the tips -- has to be 250 yards minimum over H20 with no bailout.

[Wade Whitehead]

How far was the carry on the tenth at Bethpage a few years back when Corey Pavin (and others) couldn't reach?

WW

[Brad LeClair]

Want a really tough hole for carry. Try the 3rd at Pound Ridge (NY) from the tips -- has to be 250 yards minimum over H20 with no bailout.

How could you forget the 9th at Pound Ridge which also has a forced 251yd carry over swamp with no bailout! UPHILL! Other mentionable forced carries at this "are you kidding me" test off the tee include #17 240yds approximate, #18 225yds and numbers #12 & #16 @ 215 yds!

[Carl Johnson]

I'd say 290 yds.  Remember, we're saying the back tees, the championship tees.  Where we separate the men from the boys.  The distances I see reported on pro men's golf on TV suggests that this is not a distance any of them can carry consistently.  Hence, the men from the boys.

[David_Elvins]

0  - All courses should be able to be played with a putter from the bakc tee. 

[JLahrman]

0  - All courses should be able to be played with a putter from the bakc tee. 

Eh...depends on the terrain.  You may be creating a lot of extra maintenance depending on where you're building this course.  I don't mind a carry from the back tees, if you can't get the ball in the air, you shouldn't be back there.  But this 250 business is silly.

Knowing that the wind can shift, I don't see the need for a carry of more than 200.

[David_Elvins]

0  - All courses should be able to be played with a putter from the bakc tee. 

Eh...depends on the terrain.  You may be creating a lot of extra maintenance depending on where you're building this course.  I don't mind a carry from the back tees, if you can't get the ball in the air, you shouldn't be back there.  But this 250 business is silly.

Knowing that the wind can shift, I don't see the need for a carry of more than 200.

Yeah, you are probably right, 0 might be a bit optimistic but is definitely my preffered carry.  Somewhere between 100-150 yards probably more realistic. 


Tobacco Road is interesting.  A short course from the back tees but with a lot of 200+ yard carries, altohugh mainly over sandy waste where the ball is easy to find and play from.  if there was water there instead of sandy wastes, I would not regard the course as anything close to good.

[JLahrman]

Tobacco Road is interesting.  A short course from the back tees but with a lot of 200+ yard carries, altohugh mainly over sandy waste where the ball is easy to find and play from.  if there was water there instead of sandy wastes, I would not regard the course as anything close to good.

Have not played Tobacco Road, but would love to sometime (why is it that non-Americans have always seen more of America than I have?)  But that's a good illustration...filling in all the sandy waste would be a lot of construction costs, and then you'd incur extra costs mowing the grass you've filled in.

If those carries were water instead of sandy waste, why would it change your opinion of the course?  Aside from that fact that it wouldn't match the terrain.  Sandy waste or water, it's meant to be carried.  And if people are playing the correct tees, it's something that the player shouldn't have any trouble carrying.  Strategically there should be no difference.

[Alex Miller]

0  - All courses should be able to be played with a putter from the bakc tee. 

Got that ballflight up yet David? 

I think 200 is a good number provided flat ground.

The longest carry I've played is 270 uphill and into the wind at Lost Canyon's Shadow Course hole 4. In a group of 7 which included 6 golfers whose indexes were <5, none of us were able to make the carry.

[David_Elvins]

Have not played Tobacco Road, but would love to sometime (why is it that non-Americans have always seen more of America than I have?)  But that's a good illustration...filling in all the sandy waste would be a lot of construction costs, and then you'd incur extra costs mowing the grass you've filled in.

A LOT of work had gone into constructing and maintaining these sandy wastes, they are quite a feature of the course. 

If those carries were water instead of sandy waste, why would it change your opinion of the course?

  Because it was easy to find my ball and play out of the sandy wastes. This is not the case with water.  It is a huge diference.

And if people are playing the correct tees, it's something that the player shouldn't have any trouble carrying.  Strategically there should be no difference.

The whole idea of playing the correct tees is a bit of a misleading argument IMO.  What are the correct tees?  On a lot of occasions, the correct tees are the tees that everyone else i nthe group is playing.  If a group of golfers are spread out over 2 or more sets of tees, this is a weakness of the course, IMO.  Also, the 'correct tees' can depend on how well a golfer is playing.  At tobacco road I did not play well and was in the waste on 3-4 holes.  If I was having a good day, I would not have gone close to them.  Should I change tees as soon as I realise I am not hitting it so well?  I didnt mind the forced carries at TR due to the playability of the waste, but they were interesting.  eg.  The photo above is a 350 yard hole with a 200 yard carry.  If I go up a tee, the hole becomes a drive and short pitch.  What is the point of playing a heap of drive and pitch holes, just to make sure you can carry hazards off the tee? 

[David_Elvins]

Got that ballflight up yet David? 

haha, it was an interesting few months and provided a lot of amusement to many members of GCA. 

I have since learned that the hips are supposed to rotate in the golf swing. 

[JLahrman]

Well then perhaps Tobacco Road was a bad example regarding maintenance costs and effort.

I suppose when we start talking about your tee shots landing in multiple of these sandy areas, I'd just consider them to be hazards, not forced carries.  To me a forced carry should be pretty easy to execute, which is why I limit the length from the back tees to 200.

Point taken about the wrong tees, but doesn't sound like the course gave you too many options?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Separate the men from the boys?  Really? What is strategic about being able to carry prodigious distances?  The OP wasn't discussing the Pro Tour where only the top 10% even average 290 yard drives!  Go to any regional event and you will find great consideration to the shortest players in the field.  Even at club pro events, so many entrants don't drive very far, or practice enough to break 80 and they like set ups that they can enjoy themselves and shoot a reasonable score.  Nowhere does a forced carry much over 200 yards say "enjoy the day."

I think women have been subjected to far more forced carries than men will ever endure, BTW.  A famous architect remodeled a Texas course and put in a bunker in front of a par 3 green. The ladies told him that they couldn't carry the bunker, couldn't play out backwards because there was a pond in front of the bunker, and couldn't play out forward because it was so deep.  In essence, they said, the gca had ended their round right there at the 9th hole.  The gca, not exactly an enlightened type, went back and put a similar bunker on the first tee shot on the opening hole to end the round before it started!

Since when it is a good thing in architecture to end a person's fun or competitive chances via design?  Not just favor one player type, like the ANGC wide fw and steep greens favored long hitters and great putters, but ending any chance before they tee off?  Don't we like to see the Corey Pavin types have a chance if they play well?  Or do we want those guys to have to DQ or not enter because they can't carry a pond with a tee shot?

Short version:  Avoid forced carries and if that is not possible, shorten them to reasonable distances for the shortest hitter likely to use that particular tee, maybe 180-200 from the back and maybe 50-60 yards from the forward tees.  Certainly no more than 2/3 the typical tee shot distance from those tees.

 

[Jason Topp]

As a short hitter, I agree with Jeff's formula.

To me - a good test of architecture is how the course plays from the "wrong" tees and anytime one suggests that one needs to play the correct tees to enjoy a course it indicates a significant weakness in the design. 

I much prefer that the player have a significant advantage based on a long carry off the tee rather than an advantage multiplied by penalty strokes.  Not always possible but something to strive for.

[Ronald Montesano]

If you're a short hitter, get the hell off the back tees.

If you go way, way back at Straits in Wisconsin, back where the touring pros sometimes tee off, on #15 I believe, there is one mother of a carry...feels like Columbus looking for land up there...oh, there it is, a few leagues off...the fairway.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If you are in competition, like the OP suggests, you do not have an option to move forward, do you?

[David Whitmer]

If you're a short hitter, get the hell off the back tees.

Tricks,

Not so sure I agree with this, and let me give you an example. Back before cancer got ahold of my father, he had a handicap of 1, and he hit his tee ball maybe 220 yards. However, he had a fairway wood game and short game that would make some pros jealous. He liked to tee it up with his sons (all of whom are good players) and the better players at the club, even though he was the shortest hitter. He liked the challenge those tees brought him.

Because of guys like him, I am sensitive about forced carries. I have no problem asking a guy who plays the back tees to carry it 200 yards. But, any more than that and a player like my dad is given a situation he can't handle, with no alternative. Perhaps his game is unique, but...what to do about a short-hitting, excellent player?

[Tim Martin]

Have not played Tobacco Road, but would love to sometime (why is it that non-Americans have always seen more of America than I have?)  But that's a good illustration...filling in all the sandy waste would be a lot of construction costs, and then you'd incur extra costs mowing the grass you've filled in.

A LOT of work had gone into constructing and maintaining these sandy wastes, they are quite a feature of the course. 

If those carries were water instead of sandy waste, why would it change your opinion of the course?

  Because it was easy to find my ball and play out of the sandy wastes. This is not the case with water.  It is a huge diference.

And if people are playing the correct tees, it's something that the player shouldn't have any trouble carrying.  Strategically there should be no difference.

The whole idea of playing the correct tees is a bit of a misleading argument IMO.  What are the correct tees?  On a lot of occasions, the correct tees are the tees that everyone else i nthe group is playing.  If a group of golfers are spread out over 2 or more sets of tees, this is a weakness of the course, IMO.  Also, the 'correct tees' can depend on how well a golfer is playing.  At tobacco road I did not play well and was in the waste on 3-4 holes.  If I was having a good day, I would not have gone close to them.  Should I change tees as soon as I realise I am not hitting it so well?  I didnt mind the forced carries at TR due to the playability of the waste, but they were interesting.  eg.  The photo above is a 350 yard hole with a 200 yard carry.  If I go up a tee, the hole becomes a drive and short pitch.  What is the point of playing a heap of drive and pitch holes, just to make sure you can carry hazards off the tee? 

I think it is quite a difference strategically between the sandy waste area shown here and a carry over water. Further I don`t know if this example is a forced carry at all as you will have a play regardless of how far you hit it. Forced carry to me denotes a penalty if you don`t get to the landing zone.

[Jeff_Brauer]

It appears that the LZ is a sandy waste, at least for me.  Interesting to know how many folks think that no place to land the ball other than a hazard is good design?

[David_Elvins]

I think it is quite a difference strategically between the sandy waste area shown here and a carry over water. Further I don`t know if this example is a forced carry at all as you will have a play regardless of how far you hit it. Forced carry to me denotes a penalty if you don`t get to the landing zone.

I agree with you there, Tim.  Which is why I found it interesting.  The intimidation (and humiliation) factor greatly outweighed the penalty.

[Carl Johnson]

Separate the men from the boys?  Really? What is strategic about being able to carry prodigious distances?  The OP wasn't discussing the Pro Tour where only the top 10% even average 290 yard drives!  . . . Short version:  Avoid forced carries and if that is not possible, shorten them to reasonable distances for the shortest hitter likely to use that particular tee, maybe 180-200 from the back and maybe 50-60 yards from the forward tees.  Certainly no more than 2/3 the typical tee shot distance from those tees.

Agreed 100%.  Apparently my sarcasm didn't come through very well.  Here's where I was coming from.  I don't like forced carries and I do not think they are necessary or even appropriate, except in unusual cases, and then they should be as short as possible.  However, the way the original question was posed, to my reading, left open whether it was asking about (1) the maximum appropriate length of a forced carry as a test of golf skill or (2) the maximum appropriate length of a forced carry to take it out of the equation entirely or (3) something in between, which I can't really fathom how you would decide.  For the average recreational golfer, the answer to (2) is "zero."  The answer to (1) is based on what you think is necessary in the way of a skill set to somehow define good, great, etc. golf play.  Clearly there are those, of whom I am not one, who believe that mashing the ball a long distance in the air is an essential part of the skill set necessary to successful golf, as they define it.

[Tim Martin]

Separate the men from the boys?  Really? What is strategic about being able to carry prodigious distances?  The OP wasn't discussing the Pro Tour where only the top 10% even average 290 yard drives!  . . . Short version:  Avoid forced carries and if that is not possible, shorten them to reasonable distances for the shortest hitter likely to use that particular tee, maybe 180-200 from the back and maybe 50-60 yards from the forward tees.  Certainly no more than 2/3 the typical tee shot distance from those tees.

Clearly there are those, of whom I am not one, who believe that mashing the ball a long distance in the air is an essential part of the skill set necessary to successful golf, as they define it.

Agreed. Although cliche everyone that has played this game for a while with a variety of playing partners knows that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Each of us has most likely been slapped around by a guy who is 30 yards behind them all day off the tee. Just another reason why golf is so compelling.

[Mark McKeever]

How far was the carry on the tenth at Bethpage a few years back when Corey Pavin (and others) couldn't reach?

WW

Hole ten was a 246 yard carry into the rain/wind.

Mark