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Patrick_Mucci

Berms as an impediment
« on: May 19, 2011, 06:48:55 PM »
My dry moat thread, coupled with my recall of the 5th hole at Riviera and the 11th hole at NGLA, got me to thinking, why aren't there more vertical features/hazards/impediments on golf courses ?

Especially on courses where excess dirt or debris need to be carted away ?

The first answer might be because "blindness, or semi-blindness is frowned upon in American architecture.

Yet, some of the greatest holes in American golf have elements of blindness in them.

# 1, # 2, # 3, # 5, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 11, # 14, # 16, # 17 and # 18 at NGLA just to start with.

Some of Prestwick's most famous holes are blind.

Isn't # 1 at Pacific Dunes partially blind to a so-so tee shot ?

What's wrong with creating a partially blind hole where a properly postiioned drive is rewarded with a clear vew and a poor tee shot is presented with an obstructed view ?

It doesn't get more basic than that, does it ?

Hit good shot, be rewared, hit poor shot, be marginally penalized.

What are examples of good holes with blindness as a full or partial feature

The 6th at Old Marsh is blind

Jason Baran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 09:49:50 PM »
15 at CC of C has a really cool berm.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 09:53:31 PM »
There's great examples at Country Club of Charleston.  Anyone have pics?  The Silva restoration was amazing.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jason Baran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 09:54:52 PM »
Jay - beat you!  There's a picture of 15 on the course threads.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 11:02:14 PM »
There's great examples at Country Club of Charleston.  Anyone have pics?  The Silva restoration was amazing.

Of course...






David Schofield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 11:06:49 PM »
Lawsonia's "Gull Wings" are a good example of a vertical hazard.  Photos here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37022.0.html

Jim Briggs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 08:04:03 AM »

Pat,

I'm figuring that you think #5 at Hidden Creek is a good example of what you're talking about?  I end up on the right side of that fairway more often then the left and the semi blindess to the green creates some unease, even with a shorter iron in my hand (which probably says something about my game...).

Jim

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 08:04:32 AM »
Ed Oden,

How much of the golfer's vision of the green is obstructed by these berms ?

Is there a prefered target area that provides the golfer with enhanced views ?

And, how much do these mounds come into play ?

How much do they influence play ?

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2011, 08:59:35 AM »
Ed Oden,

How much of the golfer's vision of the green is obstructed by these berms ?

Is there a prefered target area that provides the golfer with enhanced views ?

And, how much do these mounds come into play ?

How much do they influence play ?

Pat, they're about 5 feet tall.  At that height, they don't really obstruct the view of the green that much since non-Nalopeonic golfers can see over the top.  But the best view is clearly through the notch in the middle.  They are 125 yards or so from the center of the green on a short par 5.  So they definitely affect your thinking on the second shot.  You don't want to get too close if you are laying up and must clear them if you are going for the green or looking for a short third.  These berms are the defining feature for a hole that would be pretty mundane without them.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2011, 09:51:36 AM »
There's great examples at Country Club of Charleston.  Anyone have pics?  The Silva restoration was amazing.

Of course...








That looks friggin awesome!!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2011, 09:53:42 AM »
Lawsonia's "Gull Wings" are a good example of a vertical hazard.  Photos here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37022.0.html

Lawsonia has a number of good examples. The vertical "berm" is a feature I'm surprised isn't used more often, especially on flat property such as CC of C.
H.P.S.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2011, 10:11:11 AM »
You guys are right about Lawsonia.  There are good examples of the gull wings all around the course.  6 is an especially good example.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 10:11:39 AM »
Mark,

I was thinking just the opposite.  That might be the silliest thing I've seen on a golf course in a long long time.  Very un-natural and contrived!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 11:02:39 AM »
Mark,

I was thinking just the opposite.  That might be the silliest thing I've seen on a golf course in a long long time.  Very un-natural and contrived!

I like the concept, but agree with the big fella that it looks contrived. Looking back it from the green, it looks very un-natural. With that said, I still like the concept.
Mr Hurricane

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 11:42:00 AM »
I agree that it looks manufactured, but it reminds me of older pictures of neat features that have been taken away or softened over time.  Think about all the other features on Raynor courses that are "manufactured"  This fits right in.


Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »
I agree that it looks manufactured, but it reminds me of older pictures of neat features that have been taken away or softened over time.  Think about all the other features on Raynor courses that are "manufactured"  This fits right in.


Mark

I think there is a good reason why no one uses these features anymore.  Besides being unsightly, they are purely arbitrary penal-ness and look like giant size cops.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2011, 04:30:37 PM »
Do they come in play off the tee with a good drive?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2011, 10:41:24 PM »
Pat,

Also, berms around the green can be particularly vexing.

The Fourteenth at Myopia Hunt used to have berms cradling the backside of the green. A strong shot through the green which nestled against them was almost unplayable. I played there last this fall and the club had removed them and replaced them with bunkers. I was informed that this was a restoration of the original design.

I missed the berms for some reason. They seemed so archaic and penal.




Sam Morrow

Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2011, 11:13:25 PM »
It looks like somebody piled up dirt in the middle of the fairway.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Berms as an impediment
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2011, 07:54:32 AM »
I agree that it looks manufactured, but it reminds me of older pictures of neat features that have been taken away or softened over time.  Think about all the other features on Raynor courses that are "manufactured"  This fits right in.


Mark

I think there is a good reason why no one uses these features anymore.  Besides being unsightly, they are purely arbitrary penal-ness and look like giant size cops.

What's wrong with arbitrary penal-ness ?

Don't random bunkers serve the same function ?

As to looking artificial, so does every bunker on inland courses, every elevated tee, most elevated greens.