[Mark Saltzman]

I played MB for the fifth time this past week.  It is currently ranked no. 8 in Canada by Score Golf Magazine (a Canadian publication) and no. 5 Modern by Golfweek Magazine.  

MB, to me, is the epitome of modern golf.  There are many dramatic views and exciting tee shots.  The course is not walkable (OK, it is possible to walk, but as I found out after walking it for the first time this week, walking makes for a far less enjoyable experience).  Unlike many modern courses, the course felt very natural.  That is, if there was significant land moved to build the golf course, I didn't notice.  It felt like every hole was 'fit' into the scenery (which was part of the reason the walk was so difficult).  

I am very curious to hear the opinion of those that have played the golf course.

As always, I apologize in advance for any incorrect information, and please let me know what I get wrong.

All yardages from Gold tees (second from back).

Hole 1: Par 4, 392 Yards

The first tee shot may be the most difficult on the course.  Playing downhill and into the wind, a forced carry of around 225 yards is required just to reach the fairway (it's 272 yards from the tips!!).  Although most are probably solely concerned with reaching the fairway, one must be careful not to miss right as there is hazard all the way down the right.  The bunkers are a long way from the tee and I would think are only in play for the longest of hitters.  One thing I noticed at MB is that in some cases the bunkers, rather than adding strategic interest, were often used as a means to frame a hole.

[Matt Bosela]

I'm looking forward to the thread Mark.  Hopefully, Ian Andrew pops in and gives some input into the design of Muskoka Bay, as this was one of the last courses he worked on under Doug Carrick.

I really enjoyed MB when I played there a few years back and feel that it's the strongest course in Muskoka, along with Thomas McBroom's Oviinbyrd. 

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Why would a course start with a tee shot that has such an asymmetrical risk/reward proposition?

[Harris Nepon]

What a way to start a round. A 272 yard carry? Seems like more then a bit much.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 2: Par 3, 181 yards

A very strong par 3.  It is not obvious from the tee, but the green is actually quite large and has quite a bit of movement.  There is a bit of a false front that catches a shot that is short the green extends back left meaning a back left pen will look like it is floating in the rough.  A very cool visual.  Short and especially short right are dead!

From Tee



From Right



Short of Green



Green

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3: Par 4, 399 Yards.

My favorite hole on the course!  There is a diagonal ridge in the fairway that MUST be carried if one wants to have any sort of view of the green.  From the tees I played, it is around 210 yards to carry the ridge down the middle, a fair bit less if you bail right and a fair bit more if you take the aggressive line up the left.  There is a very big difference in the approach from a tee shot that fails to carry the ridge.  The shot is blind and the green is clearly designed to be approached from the right.  However, by the green, a bank on the right will assist a player coming in from the left.

View From Tee



Approach from Left of Ridge (Tee Shot that does not carry ridge)



Approach from Right of Ridge



From Behind Green

[George Freeman]

Thanks for the tour Mark! 

#1 - Looks like a real ball buster of an opener, especially with all the trouble on the right (where most people miss) and the elevated tee box.

#2 - I like the look of the bunkerless green and the fact that the green extends beyond the mound to the back and left, making some hole locations at least semi-blind.

#3 - What a gorgeous hole.  However, it appears that the shorter hitter might be at a large disadvantage here.  Not only do they get penalized for not clearing the ridge by losing distance, they then must approach a blind green, uphill, over unforgiving rocks.  Am I correct in that though?

Muskoka Bay looks like a fantasy course routed through some magical, fairytale landscape.  The terrain is quite stunning (although maybe a little severe for great golf?).

Thanks again and keep the photos coming!

[Mark Saltzman]

Thanks for the tour Mark! 

#3 - What a gorgeous hole.  However, it appears that the shorter hitter might be at a large disadvantage here.  Not only do they get penalized for not clearing the ridge by losing distance, they then must approach a blind green, uphill, over unforgiving rocks.  Am I correct in that though?

Muskoka Bay looks like a fantasy course routed through some magical, fairytale landscape.  The terrain is quite stunning (although maybe a little severe for great golf?).

George,

There are several holes that I felt penalized the shorter hitter, though #3 wasn't really one of them.  If you're playing the right tee box, carrying the ridge should not be a problem, especially if you bail out to the right (carrying on the aggressive line is another story...).

The terrain is beautiful.  A bit like Wolf Creek in that you sacrifice walkability for beauty and vistas.  It felt like Carrick knew the course would not be walked and as a result found the best 18 holes and used them, whether or not there were tough climbs to tees or long treks around hazards.

Again, all of this is just my opinion.

Mark

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I really love the look of the exposed rock, and based on the pictures it looks like its very much in play.  I suppose it could become a nightmare situation with balls bouncing dozens of yards offline, but the visual is still neat.

Is the clubhouse really as much in play from back tee on 1 that it appears to be?  Looks like a quick hook would find it quite easily.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

I really love the look of the exposed rock, and based on the pictures it looks like its very much in play.  I suppose it could become a nightmare situation with balls bouncing dozens of yards offline, but the visual is still neat.

Is the clubhouse really as much in play from back tee on 1 that it appears to be?  Looks like a quick hook would find it quite easily.

Kalen,

The rocks are very much in play and must be avoided.  There were a couple of places where it looked like the general slope of the rocks was back towards the fairway and as a result most of the time (I think) the ball should ricochet back in play.  I have no idea if this was done on purpose.

When I was standing on the tee I didn't really notice the clubhouse as being in play, but it really does look close in the picture.  Hopefully if you can play the tips (CR 76.8, slope 148) a snipe-hook of 1 isn't in your repertoire.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 4: Par 4, 319 Yards.

A very short, downhill par 4 that requires a forced carry (about 200 yards) over a hazard.  The best approach, especially to a back-left pin, is from the right so the player must challenge the right-side bunkers.  However, given the flattish green, I found that anything in the fairway will leave a reasonable approach to any pin.  Frankly holes 4-5 were not my favorite stretch on the golf course, but still very pretty.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 5: Par 5, 516 Yards.

Another hole with a VERY long carry to reach the fairway.  From the tees I played, it was 230 yards to reach the fairway at the nearest point and any attempt to take a more aggressive line added carry yardage quickly.  The carry is 260 yards from tips to the nearest point of the fairway over the hazard.  The bunker in view off the tee again appears more to frame the hole than impact strategy as it is a very long way from the tee.

From the Tee



One really wants to get the tee shot over the crest of the hill, but that requires a tee shot of, I think, 250 yards.  Most players will be left with this view for their second:



View from a tee shot that gets over the ridge:



Approach

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I couldn't resist and I took a look at the aerial of the course via Google Maps.  Needless to say, I'll be following this thread pretty closely, looks like some interesting holes coming up and looking forward to see what it looks like from ground level!  

[SB]

Muskoka Bay is one of my favorite courses, although I'll admit that I have a personal connection so I'm a bit biased.  Definitely a must play if you are north of Toronto. 

A couple of notes:

1.  The back tee on #1 is next to the driving range and I'm told is not open for play very often, and is really only for top tier players.  It's also signficanly downhill, so the 270 is probably really more like 250.  The next tees up are significantly shorter and the hole plays as a fairly soft opener.  I blew my drive into the left bunker pretty easily from the middle tees.

2.  The terrain is pretty severe but the course doesn't really feel that way as the routing, I think, is outstanding.  There's a couple of long walks between holes, but otherwise it would be pretty walkable.  Not a ton of up and down as I remember it.

3.  The scenery is stunning with the rock formations and such, but the fairways are WIDE and well designed, so it's not target golf.  The rocks rarely come into play although they are very visible on most holes.

4.  Hole #3 I think is my favorite, too.  Depending on your tee shot you could have everything from a nine iron to a four iron into the green.  Very much rewards risk taking and execution.  Also beautiful, as there is a beautiful lake to the left of the green that doesn't come into play.

Great pictures!

[Mark Saltzman]

2.  The terrain is pretty severe but the course doesn't really feel that way as the routing, I think, is outstanding.  There's a couple of long walks between holes, but otherwise it would be pretty walkable.  Not a ton of up and down as I remember it.

3.  The scenery is stunning with the rock formations and such, but the fairways are WIDE and well designed, so it's not target golf.  The rocks rarely come into play although they are very visible on most holes.

Thanks for the comments.

I agree with number 3, not so much with number 2.  There is certainly plenty of room off the tee and on most approaches so it is rare (exceptions are probably 8 and 9) that the rocks really come into play.  Only a very errant shot will usually find them.

I think MB is a VERY difficult walk, and would never do it again.  Have you ever walked it before?  I had not and as a result didn't realize how tough a walk it would be.  Just a few examples: the walk from 2 green to 3 tee is straight uphill.  The walk from 4 down to the fairway, while downhill, is a very roundabout route that takes quite a bit of time.  The walk to 5 green is again very roundabout and then straight uphill and unless you want to make it even longer, you have to trek down the rocks in front of the tee.  The walk up to the 6th is again quite uphill.  The walk between 8 and 9 is long...and uphill at the end.  The walk to the 9th fairway is again very roundabout (sharing the bridge with 5), though it is downhill.  Then the walk between 9 and 10 is unbearable.  Long and probably the most uphill.  And if you wanted to get to the clubhouse for a drink after 9, that would be a very long walk as well.  I won't get in to the back 9.  Like I said, I really like the routing and was amazed at how natural it felt.  But, it is not an enjoyable walk.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 6: Par 3, 203 Yards.

Quite a difficult par 3 from either of the two back twos (and a fairly simple one from any tee further up).  There is a forced carry over a hazard (should not really be in play) to a green with a large bailout area to the right and deep bunkers left.  I'm not sure what happened to my pictures of the green, but the general slope will allow a player that brings the ball in from the right to get to a back pin without completely challenging the front bunkers.



View from shorter tees




Hole 7: Par 4, 409 Yards

While fairly open, I found this to be one of the more strategic tee shots on the course.  An approach from the right side of the fairway is certainly preferred, but to get there one must challenge the large fairway bunker.  The view of the picture is actually from the blues (one up from where I played - my tees were up that day).  The gold tees are back and to the right of this picture making it much more difficult to find the right side of the fairway.  The bunker is carry-able for the longer hitter (about 250 yards from the tees I played).

Tee Shot



Approach



View from a shot missed left (Don't miss left!)

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 8: Par 5, 494 Yards.

Another very pretty golf hole from an elevated tee.  This hole is reachable in two for most, especially if you are willing to challenge the right side fairway bunker.  Looks can be deceiving, however, as one must not attempt to bite off too much as it is around 280 yards to get over the whole bunker.

Tee Shot





From the DZ, one must choose whether or not to try to reach the green in two.  There is trouble left and a large up slope to the green, meaning any shots just short will leave a difficult third.  Part of the reason I really liked this hole was that most players will have the ammo to get to the green in two, but it is one of those situations where, on average, you will definitely score better by hitting 8 iron, wedge.

View from DZ



View from Third after Lay-Up


View from a shot missed short left (notice my ball there)


8 also had what was probably the boldest green on the course.  The front portion sloped towards the front creating a false front that, if found, could leave the ball some 30 yards from the green.  The back portion of the green is divided into distinct sections by a large ridge.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 9: Par 4, 390 Yards.

One of the most dramatic holes you will ever see.  A very downhill tee shot (with a forced carried over hazard - about 220 yards) to a reasonably wide fairway.  The layout of the hole and the small grouping of trees right give you a clue that you really want to challenge the longer carry over the hazard and find the left side of the fairway.  However, it is not until you get down to the DZ that you see how big a difference it is to be on the correct side of the fairway.





From the right, the green is completely hidden from view.  From the left, one can see the top of the pin and a small piece of the green.  Only a golfer that has been to MB before has any idea what awaits behind the rocks.

From the Right



From the Left



The green itself is very wide and surprisingly shallow.  Rather than surprise the player by what is found over the rocks, Carrick designed a wide enough green that anything (line-wise) close to a good shot should find the putting surface.

[Ian Andrew]

I'm on the road till Saturday and just saw the thread.

I worked on the golf course for two years.
If anyone has any questions about the course just ask.

Ian

[Yannick Pilon]

Ian,

I know you are probably biased since you worked on the course, but do you think that the course actually deserves its high ranking in the top courses in Canada.

Just from the pictures, it looks spectacular, but it seems like there are a lot of penal shots and a lot of bunkers that are mostly eye candy.  Is there anything you would have done differently if you had designed the course on your own?

We have talked about the course recently, but seeing it in pictures like this puts a new perspective on what you have said to me before.

I would understand if you don't want to or can't respond fully to the question!

YP

[Ian Andrew]

Some background:

The course was routed by Doug Carrick and is his work.

I spent two days a week for two years on site and handled all the co-ordination and administration of the project. Doug came up every Friday for the weekly meeting and spent the day on site. We had lots of fun working together for the first time in nearly six or seven years on a new project.

I did have a hand in the basic design of around 6 holes including the 11th which I found while walking the site. I worked on all the greens except the 2nd where Doug had changed the hole concept for the original and saw it through to the end. Doug always had the final call on the project and the bunkering was one of the particular aspects where we differed in opinion. I had a different idea in my mind, but the client and Doug changed their mind while we were half way through and we revised the concepts to suit the style they choose. There are only 30 bunkers and this was something I had pushed for, so on that end I was pleased.

My favourite part of the course is the fairway undulation. The 1st and 5th fairways were mined for sand to keep costs down and they were the only two I was less fond of because they lost the natural charm that I liked. The rest are wild and super cool. Some are Highlands Links good and I always loved those holes the most.

We only blasted at three green sites to remove crowns (3rd, 15th and 16th). We made small blasts at three tees for cart paths (3rd, 9th and 10th) to get paths down a big drop. We did have to haul and place a lot of 12” minus to create paths around the course. Everything else is built on top of the rock except 1 fairway, the entire 5th hole and the 13th green site. It was an extremely hard build.

The hardest part of the project was finding the sand on site and then moving it around the site. It took 6 days of walking to find enough sand and establish two pits for mining. There was 8km’s (5 miles) of construction access roads created. There is 11km’s of cart path and 1 full km that is built on a foundation of packed blast rock. The most complicated aspect for me was finding all the cart paths. Doug had designed 16 elevated tee sites on the property. I quite literally climbed up and down 40 foot rock faces all day until I found a “buildable” route without blasting.

I had to carry a sawed off shotgun through most of the project since I was out alone a lot flagging trees and searching the site in the first year. That story is actually on my blog and well worth reading:

http://ianandrewsgolfdesignblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/problem-bear.html

I'll answer some of the comments when I can this week.

[Ian Andrew]

Looks like a real ball buster of an opener

George,

It’s not. It’s downwind and a drop of over 40 feet. The back tee is ridiculously long and closed since the building of the clubhouse. The other tees are pretty comfortable.

It felt like Carrick knew the course would not be walked and as a result found the best 18 holes and used them, whether or not there were tough climbs to tees or long treks around hazards.

Mark,

That’s a fairly accurate statement. This was a hard course to route because everything except the 1st fairway and 5th fairway were built on top of rock. The carts were a given because of scale and the consistent 40 foot drops throughout the site. Therefore he found a lot of elevated tees and removed almost any blindness from the design.

I really love the look of the exposed rock, and based on the pictures it looks like its very much in play.  I suppose it could become a nightmare situation with balls bouncing dozens of yards offline, but the visual is still neat.


Kalen,

It’s not bad on most holes, but holes like the 3rd have rock very much in play. There was so much rock that it became a question of how much do you cover for playability. Half the rock on the course was washed to expose the last ¼ of the face that was under soil or plants.

I think MB is a VERY difficult walk, and would never do it again.  Have you ever walked it before?  

Mark,

I only walk when I play and that walk killed me. That’s as tough a walk as I’ve faced because your almost always going up and down all day. I think the elevated tees slowly catch up with you since there are so many.

8 also had what was probably the boldest green on the course

Mark,

The only reason that green exists was the rest of the construction crew convinced Doug to leave the green as it was built. The green mimics the rock under the green.

Hole 9: Par 4, 390 Yards.

One of the most dramatic holes you will ever see.  

Mark,

Full credit to Doug !!! He saw the hole and built it despite the potential for controversy. It’s my favourite and its all him except the green contours.

I know you are probably biased since you worked on the course, but do you think that the course actually deserves its high ranking in the top courses in Canada.

It should not be in the top 10 in my opinion. While I love many holes, I also have some issues with some others. I think the newness and scenery have played a large role in the current ranking. I also think that it’s tougher than most has a bit of a pull for some too.

Just from the pictures, it looks spectacular, but it seems like there are a lot of penal shots and a lot of bunkers that are mostly eye candy.  

It’s playable from the forward tees. Much of the comments made talked about distances from tees that play at 7,500 yards. I play the course at 6,500 yards and find I’m allowed options from the tees. It’s playable.

The bunkers aren’t what I wished they would be both visually and in some cases the placement doesn’t fit my own ideals either.

Is there anything you would have done differently if you had designed the course on your own?  

I would have built a much shorter course to deal with the complexities of the site and add more variety in yardage. I would have used far fewer elevated tees, avoided the beaver ponds in the routing and done something completely different with the bunkering.

I think Doug did a wonderful job with the goals he had for the course. It’s a case of my design philosophy being different than his.

[Peter Pallotta]

Good thread, Mark - thanks; and Ian, for your comments.

I haven't played MB but have played several other of DC's courses. I think one of the defining traits of his courses -- and a rarely-cited reason for Doug's success with higher-end daily fee courses -- is that they tend to play easier than they look.  By taste or temperament or careful consideration, he seems to have focused on providing the appearance, as much or more so than the reality, of old-style strategic choices and challenges. I think he must know his market very well, i.e. a foursome of corporate hot shots will happily drop $150-200 for a day at the golf course as long as their ego/pride remains in tact; and what better way to ensure that than to have them come off 18 having scored better than they thought they would.  (This is not of criticism of DC; I have enjoyed his courses, especially his lower-priced ones, even if in general his is not aiming his work at people like me). 

Peter

[Yannick Pilon]

Thanks for your responses, Ian.

Very honest and open on your part.

Great stuff.

YP

[Mark Saltzman]

Good thread, Mark - thanks; and Ian, for your comments.

I think one of the defining traits of his courses -- and a rarely-cited reason for Doug's success with higher-end daily fee courses -- is that they tend to play easier than they look.

Peter,

I'm curious, what courses in particular are thinking of?  Off the top of my head, here's the Carrick's I can think of:

Eagle's Nest - Looks hard, plays hard
Angus Glen (South) - looks hard, plays hard
Angus Glen (North) - looks hard, plays not so hard
Osprey (all three) - look medium/hard, play medium

On the private side, I find that Bigwin Island plays harder than it looks.  It has very wide fairways and as a result, people always say "it's easy and beautiful."  Nevertheless, I rarely find people score particularly well.

Ian,

thank you very much for the candid comments.  Very interesting to hear your take.  I hope you will continue to comment on the remainder of the holes.

Forgive my ignorance, but you say you would have avoided the beaver ponds.  On what holes are these in play? (I don't know what a beaver pond looks like)

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