[Tom MacWood]

I've seen a couple of references to Raynor (or Raynor & CBM) being involved in Maine, the earliest being a letter from CBM to Chicago GC later in 1917. What course was it in Maine?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

There is a pretty good little book on all the golf courses of Maine, by Bob Labbance.  I haven't looked at it for several years but it includes the history of all the older ones.  I will try to remember to look through it and see if there is any mention of Raynor, although I certainly did not notice one when I read it years ago.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

There is no mention of Raynor in the book -- or, for that matter, Robert White .

The authors do list courses by architect and there is one mention of Ralph Barton, who was apparently involved with a 9-hole course in Bridgton, which opened in 1925.  Barton was involved with a project or two with Raynor and Macdonald, so that might be the course in question.

The book also lists 41 NLE courses in Maine.  It only knew the architect for a handful of those, and Raynor is not mentioned.

[Tom MacWood]

I looked at the 1916 golf course guide and there weren't that many courses in Maine at that time. Two courses that were reportedly new at the time were Dark Harbor and Portland CC.

[Tom_Doak]

The new Portland CC expansion opened in 1916 was designed by Donald Ross.

The name Dark Harbor doesn't show up in the book I have.  However, its history section lists the courses that came on line in the teens as including Cobbossee (1914), Coduskeag Canoe (1916), Northport (1916), Rockland (1917), and Waterville (1916).  Cape Arundel, Kebo Valley and Poland Spring added nine holes as did Portland CC.  Interestingly, the book states that Penobscot Valley was the first 18-hole course built from scratch in Maine, in 1924.

[Tom MacWood]

According to the Portland CC website Ross was called in 1921; maybe he was called in twice. Dark Harbor was designed by Alex Findlay, I believe. In 1917 CBM said Raynor had laid out fifty or sixty courses from Florida and Missouri to Maine. I suspect a good number of those projects were built by Raynor, but not necessarily designed by Raynor. It is quite possible the course in Maine maybe one he built.

[Travis Dewire]

Maybe the head pro at Cape Arundel might know...Ken RAYNOR

Very great thread. I can't wait to find out more about raynor cbm's in Maine

[Travis Dewire]

http://www.golfcoursesguide.com/maine/scarborough/eighteen-hole-golf-course-at-sleepy-hollow-country-club.htm

http://www.sleepyhollowcc.org/dsp_history.cfm


A search in Google for: "Maine Seth Raynor" and you find it pretty easily

[Jim Briggs]

http://www.golfcoursesguide.com/maine/scarborough/eighteen-hole-golf-course-at-sleepy-hollow-country-club.htm

http://www.sleepyhollowcc.org/dsp_history.cfm


A search in Google for: "Maine Seth Raynor" and you find it pretty easily

Travis...Sleepy Hollow is in Westchester County in NY, not Maine.

[Bill Brightly]

Not exactly a Raynor, but close...

Old Marsh Country Club

Public, 18 holes, $89


New Hampshire-based architect Brian Silva is one of golf's experts at restoring classic courses -- Seminole, Augusta Country Club and St. Louis Country Club, among them -- but Old Marsh proves he can also craft memorable originals.

Opened during the summer, the 6,598-yard, par-71 layout is in Wells, Maine, a few miles south of the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport. Silva channeled the style of C.B. Macdonald and Seth Raynor here, sculpting giant fairways and huge, elevated, rolling greens. The 380-yard, par-4 2nd, the 410-yard, par-4 5th, and the 215-yard 17th, with a pond to the left and a massive green, are standouts.

[Chris_Blakely]

Tom,

I would love to know what if anything you find out about Raynor's involvement in Maine.

Chris

[Tom MacWood]

In 1917 CBM said Raynor had laid out 50 to 60 courses, and I'm pretty sure in this case the phrase 'laid out' means constructed. Twelve to 15 of those courses were CBM designs and another half dozen were Raynor solo designs, the rest must have been courses built for others. Odds are the course in Maine was designed by someone else, and I have a feeling it is Portland CC. PCC purchased their present site in 1913, and built a new course (designed by Ross), which opened in 1915. That would have been before Ross had his in-house construction associates Hatch & McGovern. In fact around this time he was using William Tucker quite a bit, who was based in NYC.

[Bill Brightly]

I don't think Macdonald or Raynor ever built a course in Maine. I spent some time researching course websites and while I found Donald Ross as the designer on about 6 courses, none showed Raynor.  Cornish and Whitten list no Maine courses for Raynor or Macdonald.

Tom, in your post you suggest that Raynor built courses that he did not design. Other than Macdonald, are there any courses that you know of where Raynor oversaw the construction but did not design?

[Tom MacWood]

It was reported Raynor built Westhampton for HH Barker and a course called Glen Acres for George Diehl. In 1917 CBM claimed Raynor had laid out 50 to 60 courses, it doesn't come close to adding up if you only include CBM & Raynor courses.

It is interesting to note Portland CC had a principles nose bunker on one of the holes. I'm not sure if that feature is original or not, whatever the case I'm not aware of too many Ross courses with a similar feature.

[Bill Brightly]

I've never heard anything to suggest that Westhampton was not 100% Raynor, nor have I heard anything about Barker being involved there. And this is just a guess, but I would think that Macdonald would have been ticked if Raynor accepted work from another architect, especially on Long Island.

Glen Acres was designed and built by Arthur Macan and I've never heard Raynor's name associated with this course. I suppose it is possible that raynor zipped up to Seattle whil he was designing Cypress Point, but it seems unlikely.

[Tom MacWood]

"From all reports the new Westhampton Beach course is going to be one of the best on Long Island, which is already noted for its splendid golfing facilities. Herbert Barker laid it out and Raynor, the engineer who did so much for the National and Piping Rock courses, has been supervising that end of its construction. It is located by the ocean and has two splendid water holes--over an inlet--not over the ocean. Not even the modern ball have not as yet made possible."

Golf magazine 2/1915

Bill
You appear to have a romanticized view of golf architecture history and particularly the relationship between CBM and Raynor. What is your view of how CBM would have reacted based upon?

In comparison to his contemporaries Raynor is a mysterious figure because he wrote practically nothing. Most of what we know comes directly from CBM and from a few newspaper and magazine accounts. I get the impression he liked to fly underneath the radar. CBM had great respect for Raynor and was obviously a huge influence on the man, but I don't think dictated every aspect of his career, a career which included golf and non-golf related projects. Raynor was a civil engineer and an independent contractor.

CBM claimed Raynor had been involved in 50 to 60 projects by 1917. Was CBM exaggerating...grossly exaggerating?

I don't know where your Glen Acres was located, but Raynor's Glen Acres was located near Buffalo, NY.

[Tom MacWood]

Bill
Raynor worked with Emmet too, at Women's National. In the early 1910s Emmet had some courses that featured famous holes, I know Glenwood was one of them, and I would not be surprised if Raynor collaborated.

[Bill Brightly]

I have always wondered why there was such a disparity between the number of known Raynor courses and the number CBM claimed. As a trained engineer and surveyor, I think it is perfectly plausible that other architects would have hired Raynor to perform a variety off services, but there is hardly any evidence of such collaboration. I would love to learn what course Raynor worked on without CBM and with another architect.

[BDuryee]

Don't know what course Raynor was involved with in Maine, but thought some might enjoy the menu from old marsh

http://www.harrisgolfonline.com/newsletters/om_menu_april09.pdf

[Tom MacWood]

I have always wondered why there was such a disparity between the number of known Raynor courses and the number CBM claimed. As a trained engineer and surveyor, I think it is perfectly plausible that other architects would have hired Raynor to perform a variety off services, but there is hardly any evidence of such collaboration. I would love to learn what course Raynor worked on without CBM and with another architect.

I've wondered the same thing. I believe there is a lot we don't know about Raynor's activities, in particular his early activities (between say his first experience at the NGLA and 1917 when he became more independent).

[George_Bahto]

I have always wondered why there was such a disparity between the number of known Raynor courses and the number CBM claimed. As a trained engineer and surveyor, I think it is perfectly plausible that other architects would have hired Raynor to perform a variety off services, but there is hardly any evidence of such collaboration. I would love to learn what course Raynor worked on without CBM and with another architect.

I've wondered the same thing. I believe there is a lot we don't know about Raynor's activities, in particular his early activities (between say his first experience at the NGLA and 1917 when he became more independent).

I am still amazed at the amount of courses he was involved with, and like you guys, the ones that haven't turned up. Now3 CB may have exaggerated a bit (but I doubt it), but Raynor was such a straight guy (no, no that) that I doubt if he would have embellished the amount of courses he built.

In 1918 he got the commission to build the course for the Olympic Club and in an interview that appeared in the Olympian magazine (1918), here is a portion of the interview:

"But presently I suggested that doubtless he had had a world of experience at golf before becoming an expert designer and builder of links.  As this observation involved no inquiry Mr. Raynor by his manner gave me the impression that he was not going to make a reply.  In desperation I asked him bluntly how he came to take up the business.

     "Well, you see," he said, "I'm a civil engineer and Mr. C. B. Macdonald hired me to lay out a course at Southampton."  By dint of prodding I learned that sixty men joined a club and contributed a thousand dollars apiece to build a golf course.  After writing (author note: visiting is correct) all over England and Scotland for suggestions and for opinions as to what were the best eighteen holes individually considered and getting quite a collection of models and maps and profiles, they selected a course for the National Golf Club which Mr. Raynor was employed to duplicate.

     "Since then I have built about sixty courses," he said.  And then he volunteered the information that n recent years people's ideals in golf have been revolutionized. Presently Mr. Raynor found himself discussing Lakeside, and he was quite eloquent for a little while."

so there he's got 60 !!  - although I have turned up over 30 courses he had not gotten credit for, there still may be a ton more out there - they keep coming.

This is what got me going on this project of Macdonald - Raynor - Banks; the mysterious Seth Raynor who documented very little.

When I started, there was about 2 public pictures of him. I think I now have at least a dozen.

[Bill Brightly]

George,

Could the 30 "missing" courses be ones where he was hired to do surveying and/or engineering work and therefore never received design credit?

[George_Bahto]

Bill, I do not think that is the case at all. He had a huge reputation early and was flooded with work (you should see my latest timeline of his work) so there was no need to pick up work. He had trouble finishing his own commissions.     

Often, a course is considered by their opening date. There were many courses that took years to build, esp during the war or courses with unique construction problems (like CC of Fairfield - Lido and many more). So I list courses during a full construction period - NGLA 1907 to opening day    Shoreacres: 1916-1921

[Tom MacWood]

George
Could you post the timeline, and in particular the timeline between 1907 and 1917? I suspect you will come up well short of 50 or 60 courses.

[George_Bahto]

George
Could you post the timeline, and in particular the timeline between 1907 and 1917? I suspect you will come up well short of 50 or 60 courses.

yes very short = thay's my point  .......  where are they


i can't post the timeline     it's excell and about 30 pages wide

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