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jeffwarne

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2011, 04:24:24 PM »
The biggest difference between Golf and Skiing... There is NO score involved in skiing 99% of the time. Skiing is a sport, but its not game. If you make it down alive without taking a ride on the meat-wagon you win, then you jump back on the lift and do it again!

The "fun" element that draws individuals to skiing will always be a little different than golf because of the adventure and exploration factors. In golf where we keep score, those feelings will never be as pure because as we all no there is no such thing as a perfect round of golf...

I am a single digit golfer, but a scratch skier!


The no score thing is EXACTLY what keeps people skiing.
I can't tell you how many unathletic people I've taught golf who told me they were great skiers.
But if you timed them/rated them compared to other skiers they'd be skiing 30 handicaps-but they don't know it, so they don't get discouraged.
But if you suddenly forced them to ski terrain the equivalent of what's popular at many golf resorts today, they'd see they can't ski either.
so kudos to the ski operators for making it a noncompetitive enviroment
and shame on us in golf  for encouraging the pen and pencil mentality
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John_Conley

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2011, 04:31:48 PM »
There was a thread a couple days back about flogton...NOT GOLF spelled backward.

Funny that folks on this site were blasting the idea and now a thread (similar to a thread 2-3 years ago) points out the obvious reality that the sport needs more participants.

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »
Ian,
Great thread!

Snowboarding saved the ski operators...period!

That said, there are certainly lessons to take from the efforts made by those folks.

First, they really did their homework to identify WHY those that were exposed to sking made the choices they did. Golf's best effort to date has been to trot out the. .."initiative de jour" and hope for some traction.

Golf : is harder to master than sking, costs more to produce and maintain the surfaces over which it is contested and has folks that often aren't the friendliest to youth and newcomers. Big obstacles...but not insurmountable. That last point really needs a quick fix and it comes down to hiring the right people that have passion and know how to share it with others.

The pathetic support of caddie golf, which I've stated often and won't subject anyone to a rant on this post, is another HUGE problem
 that the game has just flat out ignored completely.

Golf, with the dynamics it involves, on multiple levels, will never be a game played by hoards.  A return to a healthy, less corpulant version of the game offers the best long-term prognosis.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 06:45:36 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Matt Day

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2011, 07:24:52 PM »
We have had two kids free days now and they are starting to work well. It's on the last Sunday of the month and involves an hour long clinic on the range and then golf . There is no charge for kids and a $10 fee for adults for golf.

We shut an entire nine down and set up traffic cones for tee markers on the fairway, making each hole around 200-220 metres maximum. With 36 holes that's easier to do, but its vital that the kids arent't mixed in with fee paying customers.

The kids have a ball as they are not under pressure from "real" golfers and parents get the chance to spend a couple of hours with their kids in a relaxed environment. This is the first time I got to play golf with my 9 year old daughter, even my four year old has a crack with his driver on every hole.

First event we had 17 kids plus parents, second event 33 kids plus parents. After the golf there is a band providng entertainment and food specials for $10. The whole thing is about letting the kids have fun.

Tim Martin

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2011, 07:32:52 PM »
We have had two kids free days now and they are starting to work well. It's on the last Sunday of the month and involves an hour long clinic on the range and then golf . There is no charge for kids and a $10 fee for adults for golf.

We shut an entire nine down and set up traffic cones for tee markers on the fairway, making each hole around 200-220 metres maximum. With 36 holes that's easier to do, but its vital that the kids arent't mixed in with fee paying customers.

The kids have a ball as they are not under pressure from "real" golfers and parents get the chance to spend a couple of hours with their kids in a relaxed environment. This is the first time I got to play golf with my 9 year old daughter, even my four year old has a crack with his driver on every hole.

First event we had 17 kids plus parents, second event 33 kids plus parents. After the golf there is a band providng entertainment and food specials for $10. The whole thing is about letting the kids have fun.

Matt-That sounds great. Anything that includes and gets kids interested is a winner for the game. Having 36 holes makes it a no brainer.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2011, 08:04:53 PM »
There was a thread a couple days back about flogton...NOT GOLF spelled backward.

Funny that folks on this site were blasting the idea and now a thread (similar to a thread 2-3 years ago) points out the obvious reality that the sport needs more participants.


Some of those people simply think it is a stupid idea to set up a game with different rules, when such a high percentage of golf is played outside the official rules anyway. Who cares how they play the game, as long as they don't interfere with others and damage the course. You know, kind of like skiing. Don't block the difficult runs with your snow plowing wedge getting in the way, and don't dig holes in the snow.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dick Kirkpatrick

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2011, 08:32:56 PM »

Bill Gayne

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2011, 08:39:30 PM »
I tend to agree with Sean and Melvyn's points of view on this question. I live in a largely non-skiing area, Virginia, but we do take yearly family trips to Utah and I willl take the occassional guys trip to Utah. To me the real difference in the two activities is that one is a major event, skiing, and the other is just part of our routine activities, golf. To be competent (and I use that term very loosely) at golf it needs to be a routine activity.

I think you guys are giving the leadership of the ski industry too much credit. They got lucky with snow boarding and TV needed to find some way to make winter and in particular winter olympic sports interesting. What could be the equivalent of X Games for golf? Maybe something along the lines of the reverse Jans played in an urban setting or a three hole par 72 course played over non traditional golfing grounds.

I was thinking about the four ski resorts we went to last winter and tried to equate them to major championship sites:

Deer Valley - ANGC
Snow Bird - Oakmont
Alta - The Old Course
Park City - Valhalla    
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 08:41:19 PM by Bill Gayne »

Chris Flamion

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2011, 01:22:57 AM »
Ian, great thoughts.

I think a critical point is that skiing/snowbaording is a great FAMILY activity, while in many cases, golf is not perceived that way. The soccer moms/dads raising kids now want to do things as a family, so they may plop down $5,000 to $10,000 (or more) per season for a FAMILY activity, but not golf. I think the young father today has a real tough sell when he brings up the topic of joining a club, Mrs. Soccer Mom is not going to be too thrilled with that idea, especially if Dad thinks he is gonna sneak out for 4 hours or so every weekend.


I found this quote extremely telling about the stigma of the club.  When my wife and I were talking about joining a small local club last year we found the price feasable, but she didn't see the reasoning.  The kids don't play(despite my efforts) and while she does she just didn't see herself playing enough.

A few months later she asked me to plan a ski trip to Steamboat.  After all costs the 8 day trip was only 20% cheaper than an entire years membership at a local golf club......

As for the people saying golf doesn't need to grow I remind you of this.  We love golf Architecture on this site as if it were an art form, mostly because it is.  If golf were to continue a slow decline eventually we would lose priceless pieces of artwork to real estate developers that we will never be able to reclaim. 

I am not saying golf needs to make everything easier, or make 3 hole loops with 2 flags on each green.  Golf needs to just focus as an industry on why people started playing in the first place, because it can be fun.

Chris

Sean_A

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2011, 04:50:05 AM »
Chris

While not pleasant, golf could use a trim down.  Inevitably, that may mean some fine courses bite the dust, but there are a huge number of fine courses in the world.  Losing a few won't impact on artistic sensibilities as much as some may believe.  That said, yes, I think an emphasis of fun should be the focus of the game, but that is largely in the hands of those who play rather than an outside agency.  From a business aspect (which is the essence of this thread), one of the the best things that can happen to increase profitability is a shedding of excess.  There are too many equipment companies, golf courses, golf architects, golf writers etc etc to spread the ever diminishing wealth in a such a manner where all will earn decent livings.  But then, nobody ever said all these folks deserve a decent living from golf, yet it seems to be almost assumed that it is a god given right so long as one respects and loves the game. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Craig Sweet

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2011, 06:40:46 AM »
This conversation is not new...I raised this skiing v golf comparison a couple of years ago in a thread on the death of golf...

Here is something to consider...I am 59 years old...when I was 10 years old Vermont had twice as many ski areas than it does today. The ski areas that have disappeared are the small mom and pop operations and mid size non destination ski areas....like so many things as the costs of operation climbed the small hills were forced out of business. As the mega resorts (Killington, Stratton) expanded and created real estate opportunities that essentially kept them afloat....and they grabbed the lions share of the market that remained....companies bought up these remaining resorts and eventually a handful of companies owned 95% of the mega resorts..

If golf follows the skiing model we will see fewer golf course and more expensive golf...

We are no longer a country of laws.

David Harshbarger

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2011, 06:56:13 AM »
Here in Saratoga, North of Albany NY, there have been a number of new courses in the past 15 years.

Saratoga National - upscale daily fee, no housing as far as I know
Airway Meadows - Cow farm converted to golf course by owners - no houses as far as I know but still some cows
Fairways at Halfmoon - there's also RE here but not in the RE on every hole mode, more a housing development in the same area.
Saratoga Lake - woodlot converted to golf by owner, no housing as far as I know

In 2 of these cases at least we're looking at mom and pop courses, on the old Vermont skiing model.  This works, I think, because they are close enough to population centers they don't need the amenities that more remote ski facilities require, hence they don't need the capital.

I don't see this fact changing, so I think the well run mom and pop should survive and prosper, in a way that the well run mom and pop ski resort has a harder time doing.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2011, 08:02:43 AM »
It is a lie that serious golfers discourage children from entering the game.  The child makes the choice not to play. 

I also believe that if you feel that you are not accepted at any given venue it is a reflection on your own personality and not the culture of the club.  What people don't like are those new members who want to change the culture to fit their own specific needs.  Maybe you need to jump in a cart now and then, or stick around for a few drinks, or lose a small wager.  What is so hard to understand?

Bill Brightly

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2011, 10:14:20 AM »
It is a lie that serious golfers discourage children from entering the game.  The child makes the choice not to play. 

What times can kids age 14 and under play at your club?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2011, 11:16:09 AM »
Zero restrictions.

Troy Alderson

Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2011, 08:56:43 AM »
Maybe we have to face up to the possibility that golf isn't that appealing for a huge segment of the population and get on with making do with the huge numbers of people who do play golf.  Why is there a persistent murmur that golf needs to grow?  Because the USA has built too many golf courses and too many over the top golf courses and we need more players to justify the cost of golf on this side of the pond.  IMO, many golf courses should be shut down.  For instance, where I live in a town of about 50,000 we have one private club, two public courses, and one "high-end" resort that is hurting.  The private club is getting by, one of the public courses gets most of the play, the other public should close its doors, and the resort is trying to make a comeback with a new owner.  I understand that folks dependant upon golf for a living want to feed their families, but that doesn't necessarily mean that growing the game is desirable.   This doesn't mean golf can't learn from whoever (whatever), but from my perspective (and I suggest a who significant percentage of golfers) everything is fine.  Golf has an incredible ddiversity of players, courses and in an incrediblle diversity of countries and climates.  If a guy like Fowler was shown the history of golf development over the past 100 years he would be astonished.  Instead there is the everlasting desire for more, more, more, now, now, now.  What in the devil is wrong with the world when folks think of golf this way?

Ciao     

Sean_A

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2011, 09:06:23 AM »
Troy

Yes, golf courses are not utilized at full capacity.  However, even if golf was at a capacity level which returns steady profits, I think golf industrialists would be saying the same things.   Its much more about feeding a huge machine (people) than anything about golf.  In other words, its self preservation in full press couched in a language of what is good for golf.  The stuff of nonsense really.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ivan Lipko

Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2011, 01:29:47 PM »
I do not want golf to be more popular, I do NOT want the golf courses to be inundated with bunches of gaper tourists, I do not want 90% of golf being  a "bunny hill" for noobs.

I actually believe that skiing should learn from golf - i.e. before allowing someone on the slope he or she should pass a qualification exam, get their skiing handicap and prove that they have enough basic knowledge not to create trouble to themselves and the other people.

And, may I ask you a question - why do you want more people playing golf???

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2011, 05:20:57 PM »
I do not want golf to be more popular, I do NOT want the golf courses to be inundated with bunches of gaper tourists, I do not want 90% of golf being  a "bunny hill" for noobs.

I actually believe that skiing should learn from golf - i.e. before allowing someone on the slope he or she should pass a qualification exam, get their skiing handicap and prove that they have enough basic knowledge not to create trouble to themselves and the other people.

And, may I ask you a question - why do you want more people playing golf???

Well as I remember your critique of my armchair entry went something like, "it needs to be more like a bunny hill for noobs". ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dave McCollum

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2011, 03:58:41 PM »
Good thread, Ian.  I was thinking along the same lines the other day.  What would be wrong with many more forward tees for less skilled players?  Or for skilled golfers wanting mix up the game by playing a long, difficult par four as a drivable one.  I saw some website the other day for “All Tee Golf” that was promoting a game of golf involving just 2 rules (less than 200 words) and “the fairest, fastest, funest golf you will ever play.”

 http://allteegolf.com/

I baulked at paying the $7 to learn more.  Does anyone know about this game?  The tagline seems to be going in the right direction for getting more folks involved in the game.

What got me thinking was the two day state senior tournament we had here last week (put on by the state association).  Two days of grind- it-out stroke play that we tried to keep under 4.5 hours a round by handing out time penalties (no fun and ultimately abandoned).  Personally, I can’t think of any form of golf that is less fun.  When all 124 golfers (way too many for a reasonable pace) were out on the course, I asked our head pro “why do we even do these things?”  There are so many more enjoyable formats for tournaments, many of which are probably mentioned above (if I weren’t so lazy to read the entire thread).  The point I was trying to make is why don’t courses promote more fun variations of the game?  I think that concept fits this thread.
 
I play very few tournaments, but the only ones that I do play are all match play using various formats—2-man best ball with 9 hole matches, foursomes (alternate shot), best ball, etc.  Even during regular play with the sharks and weasels that are my golf buddies, we play all sorts of wacky games to keep our interest up and the betting lively.  Always at match play or some Stableford modification like “Chicago.”  Sometimes we play “horse” where hole winners pick the next teeing area, marked or unmarked.  One day a year we even play the course backwards (not recommended for timid weaker players).  We do it because it’s fun.  When somebody starts whining about getting pops, the usual response is “play better,” but in match play, 2/3 of handicap spinning off the low player works out quite fairly.

I saw lots of good ideas as I was skimming through this thread, which I’ll go back and read when I have more time.  Some that I’ve seen are: driving ranges with greens that can be converted into short courses for kids, big Himalayas-styled putting courses for families; junior tees on every hole; and so on.  I’m as much as a traditionalist as anybody, but I also believe that it is better for business to encourage golfers to have more fun playing the game.  We are always looking for ways of doing this without offense to more traditional golfers.  We also fill our course with juniors, kids, and beginners on our off-peak hours.  Last week we ran a special (the offer good for two days) for golfers to buy a round on Mondays or after twilight starts on weekends:  $10 a round.  We sold 2,000 rounds in two days.  Those golfers will rent carts, eat burgers, rent clubs, buy beer, and do all the usual things to offset the discount.  But, to me, what it clearly proved is that there are folks out there with a desire to golf if we break down some of the barriers.

Thanks in advance for your good ideas when I have the chance to read them.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2011, 05:35:04 PM »
Here in Saratoga, North of Albany NY, there have been a number of new courses in the past 15 years.

Saratoga National - upscale daily fee, no housing as far as I know
Airway Meadows - Cow farm converted to golf course by owners - no houses as far as I know but still some cows
Fairways at Halfmoon - there's also RE here but not in the RE on every hole mode, more a housing development in the same area.
Saratoga Lake - woodlot converted to golf by owner, no housing as far as I know

In 2 of these cases at least we're looking at mom and pop courses, on the old Vermont skiing model.  This works, I think, because they are close enough to population centers they don't need the amenities that more remote ski facilities require, hence they don't need the capital.

I don't see this fact changing, so I think the well run mom and pop should survive and prosper, in a way that the well run mom and pop ski resort has a harder time doing.

Dave

With no new ski areas opening during the same time, right?  Plus many of New York State's ski areas are owned by the State or quasi-state entities -- anyone know if they make money? 

Tony Ristola

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Re: Golf needs to learn from Skiing
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2011, 11:06:37 AM »
Ian: This is a tough nut to crack. Some of these have been repeated often here.

A much shorter ball. That would negate the need for longer courses and the average golfer wouldn't notice the loss except for the advertising campaign, and reporting that would ensue.

Wider fairways. But this would have to come with a slight reduction in maintenance standards and benefit all golfers. Coupled with a shorter ball, you might find strategy, people picking angles, return for the better golfers, and flexibility for the poorer. You're simply changing the cutting of light rough to fairways... but irrigation would most likely have to be less frequent, which means more brown. That's fine with the connoisseurs, but some of the public may not appreciate it... which dovetails into the next topic...

Education: Especially in Europe. They've done an awful job with this. Dispel the myth that golf is for the wealthy. Educate about the benefits of brown and green.

More cost effective development. From clubhouse to course. Carts and paths cost money, all passed onto the consumer. I wonder, has anyone done a poll about the perception of golfs and carts among the public? Polled core and occasional golfers about their views on carts?

Fewer clubs: 9-10. Lighter to carry, trolley and transport.  You can transport 9 clubs in a pencil bag and put them inside a travel bag for cross country skis. Like carrying an over sized tube for plans.

One question: most clubs have multiple tees... but how many golfers move forward for fun rounds?

It's interesting that snowboarders were banned from many slopes in the beginning. Now it's seen as a savior of sorts. I wonder how this has worked with the family aspect of snow sports too? Kids now more interested to go on vacation with their folks into the mountains.