Tassie v. Oregon; Barney v. Bandon; Doak/C&C v. Doak/C&C

[Sven Nilsen]

This was touched upon in an another thread, and there is probably a very small sampling of people who have seen both, but how does the two course tandem at Barnbougle compare to the Pac Dunes/Bandon Trails combo at Bandon?  It wouldn't be fair to compare two versus four, so lets limit this conversation to the first efforts by the architects noted at each.

Are there any other resort destinations with at least two quality courses that could be added to this conversation?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pebble Beach/Spyglass Hills? Certainly that is a fantastic two course combination. Far more expensive than Bandon, but whatever. Its still a very good two course combo and in my opinion equal to, if not better than, the combo at Bandon. Or are you just looking for a Doak/C&C set at the same resort?

[Ryan Kelly]

If your a fan of Pete Dye, you have to consider the American Club in Kohler Wisconsin.  Another resort with 4 courses.  Not sure if all of them are great, but they do have 4.

[Garland Bayley]

Pebble Beach/Spyglass Hills? Certainly that is a fantastic two course combination. Far more expensive than Bandon, but whatever. Its still a very good two course combo and in my opinion equal to, if not better than, the combo at Bandon. Or are you just looking for a Doak/C&C set at the same resort?

Which part of Tassie v. Oregon; Barney v. Bandon; Doak/C&C v. Doak/C&C didn't you get?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pebble Beach/Spyglass Hills? Certainly that is a fantastic two course combination. Far more expensive than Bandon, but whatever. Its still a very good two course combo and in my opinion equal to, if not better than, the combo at Bandon. Or are you just looking for a Doak/C&C set at the same resort?

Which part of Tassie v. Oregon; Barney v. Bandon; Doak/C&C v. Doak/C&C didn't you get?

Well, the last sentence of his post indicated to me that he was wondering if there were any more resorts with 2 top tier golf courses at the resort. Pebble/Spyglass certainly fits the bill there.

[David_Elvins]

Sven,

Interesting question. I would loosely rank the courses:
Barnbougle
Pac dunes

Trails, old mac,
Lost farm



Bandon dunes


So course quality wise, they are both fantastic. Both resorts have managed to produce courses with unique character, which is especially a good effort with 4 courses at bandon.

The big difference with me is cost. In peak season, bandon is about $600 to $700 a day.  At Barnbougle, that can almost cover a weekend including  transfers from Melbourne.  Bandon has a better practice facility, but with the golf being so expensive, there is pressure to cram in as much golf as possible and not use the facility.

I love pebble beach but both it and spyglass are worse courses than Barnbougle and lost farm, Respectively, imo.  As for kohler, I haven't been there but I find it hard to believe e that whistling straights is in the same league as Barnbougle, pebble and pac dunes.

[Mark Bourgeois]

If your a fan of Pete Dye, you have to consider the American Club in Kohler Wisconsin.  Another resort with 4 courses.  Not sure if all of them are great, but they do have 4.

On those counts, I'll take Casa de Campo over American Club for the golf, big time.

[Bill Brightly]

Lucky enough to have played them all, I would rank them Old Macdonald,  Barny Dunes, PD, LF, BT, Bandon Dunes but it is very close. I rate OM first because it is so much fun to play.  BD and PD are neck and neck for best golfing terrain, with LF right behind.  BD and BT make a perfect 36 hole compliment to any of the others.  

[Scott Warren]

Bill,

I'm assuming the BD at the arse end of the field is Bandon Dunes and the BD running second is Barny Dunes?

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

I'm assuming the BD at the arse end of the field is Bandon Dunes and the BD running second is Barny Dunes?

Yes, amended my post. I knew what i meant

[David Kelly]

Lucky enough to have played them all, I would rank them Old Macdonald,  Barny Dunes, PD, LF, BT, Bandon Dunes...

Bill,

Great minds... That's exactly how I would have them as well. 

As for the resorts themselves, since there is way fewer people at Barnbougle/Lost Farms and the cost is a lot lower I prefer it to Bandon. Practice areas are irrelevant to me.

[Kevin Pallier]

I'd rank them

Old Mac / Pac Dunes

Barnbougle Dunes

Bandon Trails / Lost Farm

As far as preferred architect duo I would probably say those at Bandon - just. Primarily, for the suggestion that OM & PD are slightly of a higher quality than Barn Dunes for mine. I particularly like the contrast in settings of the Doak + C&C courses at Bandon.

However, if I was really focusing on value for money I think those at Tasmania would tempt me to return moreso.

[Darren Gloster]

A topic very dear to my heart.

A trip to Bandon in 2004 was my first REAL exposure to quality golf courses and architecture.  I had read an article in Australian Golf Digest about this course in Oregon which had a couple of spectacular photos attached and when the opportunity presented itself I thought I would see what all the fuss was about.  That first trip to Bandon was so special and had a profound effect on my view of the world, quality golf, experiences etc etc.

Then along came Barnbougle and after talking non stop about my trip to Bandon and in particular Pac Dunes, we had a course by the same designer in a remote part of my home country just a few travel hours from my house.  I will also always remember my first Barnbougle trip for many of the same reasons as my first Bandon experience.

Now after countless holes at Barnbougle, February next year will mark the 6th Anniversary of our annual trip and a return visit to Bandon to play all four with some Aussie buddies I would rate:

Bandon a narrow winner over Barnbougle for golf.  This is comparing the architects in question and only PD & BT vs BD and LF.  Narrowest of margins.

For weather Barnbougle hands down.  I have been on least a dozen seperate trips and played in more than a two club breeze just once.  Last visit to Bandon was 4-5 clubs all week.  Whilst fun, it was a grind for 36 holes each day.

Value for money again goes to Barnbougle.  Same experience for about a third of the price everyday.  And I now live much closer to Bandon.

All round experience - Barnbougle.  Less commercialised and feels more homely.  Perhaps its the Tasmanian hospitality, perhaps its 100 golfers spread across 2 courses vs 500 spread across four, perhaps its the garlic prawns   but a Barny experience has only been bettered by Sand Hills for me so far.

Nevertheless both very special places and dear to my heart.  Both have shown me what good golf and memorable experiences are all about.

I cant wait to get back and play the Preserve when it opens and learn the intricases of the Lost Farm when I make the pilgrimage back home to Australia.

No golfers life experiences can be considered fulfilled without a visit to both at some point.

Take a moment to sit on the 16th tee at Bandon or the 4th green at LF (honorable mentions to about a dozen other locations) and if you cant find peace and happiness give the game away

[Bill Brightly]

Nice post, Darren.

I have this recurring thought that Bandon and BD/LF are somehow merged into one complex...How would you divide 4 days, 8 rounds?

No cheating, any more than 36 per day has to be the par 3 course at Bandon...

[Darren Gloster]

Bill - Nice question

When I was back at BD/LF in February I would play LF and go gee that was great that is my favorite.  I would then go back over to BD and think to myself WOW how good was that I forgot how special that place was, then back over to LF and this continued for 5 days.  The whole is most certainly enhanced by the sum of its parts, and whilst the most stuanch GCA buffs would argue they judge each course on its merits, dont you think the subconscious improves the value of all courses because they stronger together than they are apart?

So in 8 rounds I would play 36 at each of them.  It is so hard to learn the intricacies that Messrs Doak, Coore and Crenshaw want you to peel back, I think we learn a little bit each time.  That is what makes the game so special and the best courses in the world do it better than the others.  I must have played 30 odd rounds at BD and I am still learning.  I played 72 holes at Ballyneal over the weekend and learnt so much more than my first trip there last year.  I do chuckle often on this site the criticisms and judgements that are made of courses that people have played once, or in more recent times are making from just photos.  I know Bill in particular spends days walking, retracing, pondering, thinking, walking again the courses that he builds, I think it only fair that golfers if afforded the same opportunity try to learn their creations just as well.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill - Nice question


So in 8 rounds I would play 36 at each of them. 

There are 6 courses You need to specify between Old Mac., Pac Dunes, Barny Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Lost Farm and Bandon Trails...

[Darren Gloster]

Bill - Sven's post was specifically focussed on the architects and the courses that they built and the order they were built in.

Pac Dunes and Trails and BD and LF so that is what I focussed on.  He didnt think it fair to compare 4 vs 2.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill - Sven's post was specifically focussed on the architects and the courses that they built and the order they were built in.

Pac Dunes and Trails and BD and LF so that is what I focussed on.  He didnt think it fair to compare 4 vs 2.

Fine, I just shortned your trip to 3 days, 36 holes per day. Now how do you allocate your rounds?

[Terry Lavin]

These courses are too far apart to have any sort of meaningful comparison, except on the architectural merits or demerits of each.

The way I would ATTEMPT to compare them is to look at how many people are within six hours (air travel) of each resort.  My guess is that Bandon's proximity to population exceeds Barnbougle by some goodly multiple.  As a result, it is predictable that Bandon would be able to command a higher price and would draw more players.

That, of course, does not speak to the merits of the courses of the fun in playing the courses or the attitudes of either resort, but merely to the business model of each.

[Sven Nilsen]

These courses are too far apart to have any sort of meaningful comparison, except on the architectural merits or demerits of each.

That was the goal of the thread.  Does the golf at Barnbougle match the golf at Bandon (excepting that Bandon currently has twice as many courses).

In my mind, BarnDunes and Lost Farm are pretty close to the equal of PacDunes and Bandon Trails.  It'll be interesting to get feedback on the new FL courses once they open, as these three spots will be the only places you can pay to see C&C and Doak creations on the same property (disregarding the ownership squabbles going on down under right now).

An interesting debate/conversation could be had over the ranking of all C&C/Doak combos (based on proximity in that they might be played on the same trip).  Mine would be as follows, with the understanding there are several courses on the list below I haven't seen:

Sand Hills/Ballyneal
Bandon Trails/Pac Dunes
Lost Farm/Barnbougle Dunes
Friar's Head/Sebonack
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro/Apache Stronghold
Dormie Club/Charlotte GL
Hidden Creek/Atlantic City CC
Chechessee/Legends
Warren Course/Lost Dunes
Colorado Golf Club/CommonGround
Austin GC/Rawls Course

[David_Elvins]

As a result, it is predictable that Bandon would be able to command a higher price and would draw more players.

Terry,

I don't think that Bandon commands a higher price because of the greater population. 

There is no real market for $200+ golf courses anywhere in Australia.  It is a much different market to the US. 

[Darren Gloster]

Bill - Sven's post was specifically focussed on the architects and the courses that they built and the order they were built in.

Pac Dunes and Trails and BD and LF so that is what I focussed on.  He didnt think it fair to compare 4 vs 2.

Fine, I just shortned your trip to 3 days, 36 holes per day. Now how do you allocate your rounds?

Now where talking.  Very difficult

3 day trip -

Pac Dunes x 2
BT x 2
BD x 1
LF x 1

But I could easily go the other way.  Either way I would definetely split the architects evenly as I find their differences perhaps the perfect blend

I think Trails gets shunned as an ugly sister unfairly.  The uniqueness of the course is part of the intrigue for me.  Particularly playing through the dense Pacific Northwest Forest, which is very different for Australian golfers

[David_Elvins]

Bill,

A theoretical 8 round trip. The first thing I would decide is not to play bandon dunes.  I would play the others atleast once. The three that I would play twice would depend on conditions and mood. All are complex enough to benefit multiple plays.  All are significant enough architectural feats to require at least one play.  Lost farm and old mac, in particular, are courses that whilst not my favorites, really require multiple plays to understand or learn from.