KJ's approach on 16 Sunday at The Players

[Alex Miller]

He was forced to play a bump and run from 70 yards due to the tree that encroaches the layup area. He's a pro, and may well be on his way to winning the tournament so of course he pulled it off and hit it to 5 feet.

The question, does that tree enhance the architecture of the hole? Choi was able to feed the ball towards a pin tucked behind a bunker using the slope of the green, so I say the tree has merit.

Thoughts on the shot/tree?

[Alex Miller]

Bonus stupid Johnny Miller quote of the day: while Choi and Toms stand on 17 tee "The next three shots they hit are the most important of their careers"

Toms won a PGA Championship.

Edit: Gary Koch called him out on it. Thank you, Gary.

[Tim Martin]

Bonus stupid Johnny Miller quote of the day: while Choi and Toms stand on 17 tee "The next three shots they hit are the most important of their careers"

Toms won a PGA Championship.

Edit: Gary Koch called him out on it. Thank you, Gary.

Alex-He was half right at least on Choi`s behalf,no?

[Alex Miller]

Bonus stupid Johnny Miller quote of the day: while Choi and Toms stand on 17 tee "The next three shots they hit are the most important of their careers"

Toms won a PGA Championship.

Edit: Gary Koch called him out on it. Thank you, Gary.

Alex-He was half right at least on Choi`s behalf,no?

I probably shouldn't have mentioned this as I do want to know what people think about the tree, but I say no. He should know that Toms won his PGA the way he did. I certainly would never have made that statement, and Gary Koch didn't let it go uncorrected either.

[Andy Troeger]

Alex,
I think the tree makes the hole--it keeps the golfer from automatically bailing left and forces a decision. Choi hit his 2nd farther up than most, its not that hard to lay back farther and keep away from it. Its important in part because the hole is so short as a par five. Well...its short for the pros. When I played it I didn't really find it as short as I expected.

I noticed the comment as well--Miller seems to like to go to that one at the end of every big tournament and seems to forget that some of these guys have been there before.

[Tim Martin]

I can't take much more of this Players Championship.

I know it's for Seve and all, but all these damn red ribbons make these guys look like high school chicks with corsages, but on their prom hats.  They look like Carmen Miranda.

When will the PGA Tour have the stones to ban all these stupid-looking ribbons once and for all?  

If you feel the need to let the world know you support something, wear a damn armband like a man...or better yet, just support it quietly, without feeling the need to make a big show of it.

 

[JR Potts]

I dont know about the tree as I've never seen it in person but that shot was one of the best shots I've ever seen.  I would have dumped that in the bunker or skulled that into the water so fast it would have made your head spin.

Goes to show again....these guys play a game were not familiar with.

[noonan]

The tree really forces you to contend with the water...it might have forced Toms to go for the green....or take enough club to go past it.

[Tom_Doak]

Just to tie this back to the thread about whether people comprehend golf architecture ...

That tree on the 16th at the TPC (and all the rest of them) would not be there if Pete Dye had not figured out how to lower the water table of the entire site by enough to preserve the trees between the holes.  Otherwise, the whole place would look like Doral.

Of course, most other architects wouldn't know the foggiest thing about how to do that, either.

[Carl Rogers]

...
That tree on the 16th at the TPC (and all the rest of them) would not be there if Pete Dye had not figured out how to lower the water table of the entire site by enough to preserve the trees between the holes.  Otherwise, the whole place would look like Doral.
...

Do any of you know more about that tree?  How much bigger now than in 1981?  Has it been shaped or pruned on an on going basis? Any guess to its life expectancy?  I assume that one day it will have to be replaced???

[JNC Lyon]

He was forced to play a bump and run from 70 yards due to the tree that encroaches the layup area. He's a pro, and may well be on his way to winning the tournament so of course he pulled it off and hit it to 5 feet.

The question, does that tree enhance the architecture of the hole? Choi was able to feed the ball towards a pin tucked behind a bunker using the slope of the green, so I say the tree has merit.

Thoughts on the shot/tree?

I'm not a huge fan of architecture that forces one particular shot, especially if it is a tree that forces one particular shot.  However, I think a feature forcing a player to use the ground game is much more interesting than a feature forcing the player to use the aerial game.  Maybe "forced ground game" would be interesting if used in greater (but still sparing) doses.

[paul cowley]

Just to tie this back to the thread about whether people comprehend golf architecture ...

That tree on the 16th at the TPC (and all the rest of them) would not be there if Pete Dye had not figured out how to lower the water table of the entire site by enough to preserve the trees between the holes.  Otherwise, the whole place would look like Doral.

Of course, most other architects wouldn't know the foggiest thing about how to do that, either.

...I know you weren't trying to intentionally hurt my feelings!

[Matt Kardash]

He was forced to play a bump and run from 70 yards due to the tree that encroaches the layup area. He's a pro, and may well be on his way to winning the tournament so of course he pulled it off and hit it to 5 feet.

The question, does that tree enhance the architecture of the hole? Choi was able to feed the ball towards a pin tucked behind a bunker using the slope of the green, so I say the tree has merit.

Thoughts on the shot/tree?

I'm not a huge fan of architecture that forces one particular shot, especially if it is a tree that forces one particular shot.  However, I think a feature forcing a player to use the ground game is much more interesting than a feature forcing the player to use the aerial game.  Maybe "forced ground game" would be interesting if used in greater (but still sparing) doses.

The tree doesnt force the player to hit one type of shot. it just forces the player to use his head and lay up in the proper spot. That tree is one of the best examples of how the occasional usage of a tree can add great interest and strategy to a hole.

[paul cowley]

Personally I think that using singular trees are a short term strategic proposition.

[Garland Bayley]

Bonus stupid Johnny Miller quote of the day: while Choi and Toms stand on 17 tee "The next three shots they hit are the most important of their careers"

Toms won a PGA Championship.

Edit: Gary Koch called him out on it. Thank you, Gary.

Sorry, have to disagree with you. Had Toms won, he would have been a Hall of Fame shoo in.
He was wrong about Choi, as it was the next two shots that were the most important of his career.

Gary Koch got it backwards.

[Adam Clayman]

That shot should highlight to other courses/committeemen/supers, that have a standard maintenance presentation, that you are taking away that shot from creative players, when you grow your rough too long over the edge of a bunker, or, on upslopes that leads onto the green from fronting aprons flanked by bunkers, or just have arbitrary collars of long lush rough. That slight curvature of the ground is usable for a creative player, and if you cover it with long rough, you remove this opportunity. Off the top of my head, this is what I noticed, and commented to Kay about, at The Links of North Dakota. Gil Hanse's work at WF is bringing back this type of shot selection, by diminishing the size and scope of the collars around the greens. The 12th on the East, was the one hole he had done when I was there last summer, and hopefully, the rest of WF, will be much improved with small tweaks like this.

[Gary Slatter]

Bonus stupid Johnny Miller quote of the day: while Choi and Toms stand on 17 tee "The next three shots they hit are the most important of their careers"

Toms won a PGA Championship.

Edit: Gary Koch called him out on it. Thank you, Gary.

Why was he wrong?  Choi made 2 shots on 17 and his third was a fine drive on 18.  Pretty important I thought.

[Sean Leary]

Bonus stupid Johnny Miller quote of the day: while Choi and Toms stand on 17 tee "The next three shots they hit are the most important of their careers"

Toms won a PGA Championship.

Edit: Gary Koch called him out on it. Thank you, Gary.

Sorry, have to disagree with you. Had Toms won, he would have been a Hall of Fame shoo in.
He was wrong about Choi, as it was the next two shots that were the most important of his career.

Gary Koch got it backwards.

Shoo in? Really?

I don't see it that way.

[RJ_Daley]

I thought that it would have been most interesting to have the players and caddies mic'ed up at the point from the decisions on the second shots on 16, and then if Choi and his caddy discussed this option of a shot to bump in on in that fashion because the slope would feed it as it happened.  As far as I could tell, Choi's caddy was a big part of this win.  He really looks like a wise old veteran.  I can't say if the caddy aided in the mistake or poor choice of Toms going for it in two rather than hanging shot for shot and percentages with Choi at that point where Toms had the one shot advantage.

 If the caddy was as big of a part of understanding the architecture and seeing the options as I am guessing, maybe we should be arguing if caddies should be going into architecture consulting with a firm...  

[Bill_McBride]

Personally I think that using singular trees are a short term strategic proposition.

Unless you are rich as Croesus like the Pebble Beach Company!

[Cliff Walston]

I think some of the debate above misses the bigger picture.  I am a reluctant poster given the amount of childish infighting that occurs on these pages.  But KJ's clever shot on 16 (which would have been much more epic had he made the putt) was a triumph for great architecture, great course conditioning (especially after the weather they endured), and great shot making by a player.  When else have we witnessed a contender choose the ground game in a significant event (Major, Dunhill, Players, Memorial, etc.) with the championship on the line?  I am sure there have been times, but they are few and far between.  Congrats to KJ, a worthy champion who is a class act in every sense of the word.  Congrats to Mr. Dye on an exceptional golf course, an evolutionary a process as it has been.  And congrats to to, Mr. Vlach and his staff on great conditioning, even in the wake of significant storms, which allowed such a creative shot to have a chance of success.  A triumph for all, in my humble opinion...

[Carl Nichols]

It says a lot about the state of the Tour and Tour setups when one crummy little ground game shot (and a semi-forced one at that) has this board doing backflips. One stinkin' shot!

That was my reaction too.

More interesting to me was how G-Mac, the third round leader, melted down and shot the highest score of the entire field on Sunday.  His bogey on 9 was a complete brain-fart, and even then he was lucky to make 6. 

[Kalen Braley]

It says a lot about the state of the Tour and Tour setups when one crummy little ground game shot (and a semi-forced one at that) has this board doing backflips. One stinkin' shot!

That was my reaction too.

That makes 3 of us.

I thought it was creative, but didn't see any brilliance there.  As one who only finds maybe 1/3 my fairways, I utilize the bump and run coming out of trees all the time! 

[Jim Hoak]

I think that tree is fine and appropriate as the guardian of the green.  But had there been a bunker there--instead of fairway--, I would be absolutely opposed to the tree.  Double guards--as in a bunker with a tree in front of it--are one of my biggest gripes in golf course design.  Anyone agree or disagree?

[Jim Franklin]

Kalen -

1/3rd? Really? That many?