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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2011, 03:59:49 PM »
Pat,

If you guys ever find any facts or evidence to the contrary, please just produce it and we'll be haPpy to consider it.

Thanks.

To be clear, and avoid any doubt, you're stating that the golf course was NOT routed until after Wilson returned from his trip to the UK in 1912.

I think there's an abundant body of evidence that contradicts that position.

By the way, who are the individuals who comprise "We'll" ?
The ones who are going to consider the evidence ?

In defending your position didn't you ask yourself: Why would they buy and swap land if they didn't have a routing plan in place ?

Or do you think they engaged in those purchases and swaps just for the fun of it, without any routing plans


Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2011, 11:45:04 PM »
David,

Please provide the supposed "ample evidence" of the changes to Merion that took place between opening day in September 1912 and the US Amateur 4 years later.

Please provide the ample evidence on a hole by hole basis.   Please also try to avoid stealing from Joe Bausch or Wayne Morrison's prior research while you tell us how the course evolved in those early years.

Better yet, why don't you tell us what each hole looked like and what features and bunkers existed in 1912 when the course opened?

I'm sure you'll try to dodge this straightforward question, but you're full of it, David, and it's time someone called BS.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2011, 12:48:56 AM »
Mike,

You are the one who claimed that the 6th was remodeled from tee to green prior to the Amateur in 1916.  So prove it.    

As for stealing from Wayne's research, that is a laugh.   Were it not for my IMO, Wayne would still be claiming that CBM was nothing but Wilson's travel agent.  But they should have paid more attention because they still have it all screwed up.  These are the guys who couldn't even find Merion with the metes and bounds, literally.

As for Joe, his research is terrific, I am sure.  Unlike you, Wayne, and TEPaul, he has made the most of his proximity and access to the resources.  I tip my hat to him as usual. That said, if the Faker Flynn .pdf is any indication of what Joe has found, then even he doesn't have too much that I haven't already seen.  Besides, you shouldn't pull Joe into your petty and immature disputes, I am sure he wants no part of them.  Last I heard, Joe was claiming neutrality and more than willing to share his research with anyone.  Or is he now drinking the Kool Aid, too?  

What is your evidence for claiming that the 6th green was remodeled from tee to green between the opening and the Amateur?

And were these changes toward the Road Hole concept, or away from it?  Because as of July of 1915, it was a road hole.  
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 12:50:34 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2011, 10:34:59 AM »
Jim,

Correct, and nobody really knows.

When Merion opened it had very few bunkers and even three years later in 1915 it was stated that it had less bunkers than a short nine hole course.

Since many of the template holes such as road are defined by their proscriptive bunkering patterns, we don't know when it was done.
Mike, that's NOT true.
The original Road hole at TOC is absent all bunkering, save the lone bunker at the green.
The Redan, hog's back, Valley, Knoll, and other templates are NOT defined by their bunkering as you insist

Please stop making statements for the sole purpose of furthering your agenda ;D
[/size]

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2011, 01:01:16 PM »
Patrick,

Why do you think you can tell a MacRaynor course anywhere on the planet from just an aerial view?

Three guesses...  ;)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 09:05:21 PM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2011, 07:01:35 PM »
David,

Francis described the second green more like a double plateau than a Biarritz, and when I look at that photo, I see more of a stairstep than a swale.  The back left that you say may be a tee (or picnic area!) looks a bit small, but I wonder if it really is the upper left plateau of the green?

Thanks for the old photos.  Always interesting.  No doubt in my mind they considered the 3rd/6th a Road Hole, despite no road.  Even Raynor never built one with an actual road, to my knowledge, and I don't have any sense from Wilson's writings that they were trying to copy any feature to the inch, so if the green shape is a little different, etc., it is still a road hole conceptually, at least at the start.  Not sure what the argument about it might be, but this is golfclubatlas, and a thread about Merion......

Funny to see how the front left bunker has moved out of such a key position over the years to a more "bunker left, bunker right" mentality.  The angles are certainly more subtle today than they appear in photos from the old days.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2011, 07:17:35 PM »
Patrick,

Why do you think you can tell a MacRaynor course anywhere on the planet from ano aerial view?

Three guesses...  ;)

I could show you aerials of holes that some/many would consider a template that you couldn't tell who the architect was.

It's easy to create generalities after you know who the architect was or which course the aerial is of.

Please define the bunkering scheme for road holes.

Valley Holes ?
Double Plateau holes
Plateau holes
Hog back holes
Knoll Holes

Thanks


Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »
In July 1915, Merion had very few bunkers, this despite the fact that clearly most template holes from abroad are defined by a regimented, repeated bunkering strategy, including the Road, the redan, the short, the biarritz, the Eden, the Bottle, the Alps, the Long, and Sahara at minimum.

Yet, nearly three years after opening, the course had almost no bunkers.   How could this be?




Once Merion was awarded the 1916 US Amateur, Hugh Wilson and the Green Committee, with William Flynn, set about to change all of that, and in the next 14 months went on a whirlwind of stiffening the golf course for the national tournament.   The changes, including those to today's 6th (then the 3rd), are summarized in this terrific April 1916 article by William Evans.




« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 09:27:25 PM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2011, 09:48:25 PM »
Mike,

It says there were new pits added to the left of the fw and the front left of the green, with the green extended back left on then 3.

So, while maybe the hole was a road hole just because it played over OB short right off the tee, the nice green side bunker (which does seem to have some TOC character as a pot bunker rather than "white face of Merion" seems to have been added in 1915.  Also seems odd that they felt the need to add a fw bunker left, since there was none at TOC AND the new pot would seemingly discourage that play anyway.  I guess its hard not to put hazards on both sides, even then, for a national championship of importance.

Nice to know it took a few years for the Wicker Baskets to appear, and that a fallaway green was considered a problem then, even though many on this site seem to think they were prevalent back in the Golden Age and before.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2011, 09:54:04 PM »

In July 1915, Merion had very few bunkers, this despite the fact that clearly most template holes from abroad are defined by a regimented, repeated bunkering strategy, including the Road, the redan, the short, the biarritz, the Eden, the Bottle, the Alps, the Long, and Sahara at minimum.


Mike,

That's completely untrue and you know it.

The Road hole isn't "defined" by its bunkering scheme.  The road hole has but one bunker at the green.
The Redan isn't "defined" by it's bunkering scheme, it's defined by its green, in terms of angle and structure.
The Alps hole isn't defined by any bunkering, it's defined by the intervening earthen feature.
The Biarritz isn't "defined" by it's bunkering scheme, it's defined by the green.
The Long isn't "defined by it's bunkering, it's defined by its length.

You continue to make up absurd declarations in order to further your agenda.

Dare I say it, you're being disingenuous again.

Another flaw in your position is that your ignore CBM's taking the commitee on a tour of NGLA, before Wilson's trip, his supplying the committee with draings/detailed sketches and probably Raynor's renderings.   The committee, subsequent to their visit to NGLA was armed with in depth knowledge and details of the template holes.

As to the bunkerless nature of Merion, it's almost irreleveant, the course was routed, the individual holes that comprised the routing determined, hence the bunkering was merely the final micro touch, the macro work had been completed before Wislon's trip to the UK  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2011, 10:05:18 PM »
Patrick

To me, that pit and green extension combined have a very nice feel of the original at TOC.  Had that small pit (as opposed to a white face typical of the rest of the MCC course) not been built, and the green wrapped around it, it might be a road hole, but it was even a better road hole after the 1915 changes.

David challenged him to produce evidence of changes around 1915.  David asked, Mike posted. Please tell me how that is being disingenous?

For the record, the bunkering is NOT irrelevant nor a micro touch.  MCC wasn't known for its "irrelevant white faces of Merion."  It is interesting that while CBM showed them those holes, that they waited for many seasons and reasons, perhaps including Wilson seeing the real ones themselves, to install the bunkers.

While they understood it to be a road hole, apparently they perfected it later.  Without that pot bunker, it probably wasn't as good as the 1915 version.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2011, 10:24:27 PM »
Patrick

To me, that pit and green extension combined have a very nice feel of the original at TOC.  Had that small pit (as opposed to a white face typical of the rest of the MCC course) not been built, and the green wrapped around it, it might be a road hole, but it was even a better road hole after the 1915 changes.

David challenged him to produce evidence of changes around 1915.  David asked, Mike posted. Please tell me how that is being disingenous?

Jeff, you're going to have to start reading replies more carefully.
Mike stated, unequivically, that bunkers defined template holes. (the Redan, Biarritz, Alps, Long, Road)
That's NOT true, and Mike's redoubling of his effort to restate that bunkering defines the templates is disingenuous.

He continues to make outlandish statements.
I wouldn't mind that normally, but, he does so for one purpose and one purpose only, to put forth his agenda, which you are evidently blind to.

My comment refuted Mike's contention that bunkers, not unique physical properties, defined template holes.

I stand by my statement and refutation of Mike's absurd declaration.


For the record, the bunkering is NOT irrelevant nor a micro touch. 

Would you SHOW me where I said it was "irrelevant" ?
Absent your abilty to do so, would you please retract your erroneous statement  ;D


MCC wasn't known for its "irrelevant white faces of Merion." 

The "white faces" are more of a bunker style, a trademark so to speak


It is interesting that while CBM showed them those holes, that they waited for many seasons and reasons, perhaps including Wilson seeing the real ones themselves, to install the bunkers.

I think that' was a prudent decision.
Remember, we're dealing with a "committee", a group of novices at a time when golf course architecture was still in its infancy.

There's an old adage: "do you know what's best done if a hurry ?........ Answer "Nothing"
I think, uncertainty had to be an element that ran through the committee, individually and collectively.  Waiting until Wilson returned to put in the final touches makes sense in 1911-12.
As the construction committee, they had tremendous responsibility on their shoulders, why rush to get something wrong when they had no deadline to meet ?


While they understood it to be a road hole, apparently they perfected it later.  Without that pot bunker, it probably wasn't as good as the 1915 version.

I'd agree, that little bunker creates a unique playing challenge.
I've never seen a "road" hole where that bunker didn't create havoc.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2011, 11:05:39 PM »
Patrick,

Yes, the slow addition of bunkers was once considered wise and normal, as opposed to today, where most courses get up and out of the ground by opening day in nearly final form (except the mistakes, which are corrected, as always)

I agree Mike was perhaps a little rash in defining template holes by bunkers only, rather than a sum total of the features.  At the same time, it appears the original road hole at MCC was in name mostly at first, because of the OB in play at the right.  The real interest of the hole that truly makes it a Road Hole, IMHO, was the pot bunker and the green extension beyond it, both of which certainly had to increase the reward for playing right.

I also note they did change the OB to give more room right, and nearly take that portion out of the equation, although skirting the OB is nearly as (but not totally as) dramatic as playing over a wall.  I would think it should have been enhanced with similar size shrubs, or a faux wall.

But, it seems well documented that MCC wasn't into exact copies, as Raynor later got go be with CBM templates, so exact dupes aren't really important.  Nor is the debate about what exactly makes a template.  For that matter the parallel 3rd/6th has been held up as a Reverse Redan, and while described that way, many have opined it didn't really look like a Redan either.

So, how close does Merion have to be to build CBM's template holes to call them CBM template holes?  It doesn't appear they were as close as some of the hole names suggest, either originally (without clearly placed bunkers) or later.  But, that is a matter of debate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2011, 12:01:53 AM »
Patrick,

Yes, the slow addition of bunkers was once considered wise and normal, as opposed to today, where most courses get up and out of the ground by opening day in nearly final form (except the mistakes, which are corrected, as always)

Jeff, today we live in a world of instant gratification where turnkey products are pretty much mandated, but, back then I don't think they had that onus thrust upon them.  Taking their time to try to produce a quality product made sense


I agree Mike was perhaps a little rash in defining template holes by bunkers only, rather than a sum total of the features.  At the same time, it appears the original road hole at MCC was in name mostly at first, because of the OB in play at the right.  The real interest of the hole that truly makes it a Road Hole, IMHO, was the pot bunker and the green extension beyond it, both of which certainly had to increase the reward for
playing right.

I think the OB was a critical factor in trying to replicate the principles of the "Road" hole.  The bunker is the icing on the cake, architecturally



I also note they did change the OB to give more room right, and nearly take that portion out of the equation, although skirting the OB is nearly as
(but not totally as) dramatic as playing over a wall.  I would think it should have been enhanced with similar size shrubs, or a faux wall.

I think the faux wall or even a real wall would have been a spectacular addition


But, it seems well documented that MCC wasn't into exact copies, as Raynor later got go be with CBM templates, so exact dupes aren't really
 important.  Nor is the debate about what exactly makes a template.  For that matter the parallel 3rd/6th has been held up as a Reverse Redan,
and while described that way, many have opined it didn't really look like a Redan either.

I think the identifiable "concept" is what differentiates "templates from other holes.
I don't think there's's a need for exact duplication in order to qualify as a template, although I tend to adhere to the concept or categorization of "pure", "hybrid" and "mongrelized" templates.

Charles Banks employed the hybrid template on more than a few occasions   
[/size]

So, how close does Merion have to be to build CBM's template holes to call them CBM template holes?  It doesn't appear they were as close as
some of the hole names suggest, either originally (without clearly placed bunkers) or later.  But, that is a matter of debate.


Again, I think the genesis of the concept identifies authorship

Nothing was more manufactured than Merion's "Alps" hole.
That hole wasn't't just sitting there, it was deliberately crafted as a concession to one of CBM's  "ideal" golf holes.
Certainly replica  topography didn't exist in Ardmore, so they constructed a hybrid or mongrelized version.
What is clear is that CBM's influence was considerable.  There's no other way to explain Merion's Alps hole.

The Merion Redan is not unlike other hybrid versions, so, I don't see a disconnect on that hole.

Like every teenager, there's a desire for each club  to create their own identity and that's where I think deviation from the "pure" form enters the equation.
[/size]


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2011, 12:42:53 AM »
Mike,

It says there were new pits added to the left of the fw and the front left of the green, with the green extended back left on then 3.

NO. The green-side bunker was already there.  This article says it was expanded, not added.  Obviously it was at some point, although I doubt the timing suggested by that article.

David challenged him to produce evidence of changes around 1915.  David asked, Mike posted. Please tell me how that is being disingenous?

Jeff Brauer,  What are you talking about?   The April 23, 1916 Evans article from the Ledger directly contradicts Mike's claim.  
- Mike claimed that hole was completely remodeled.  New green, new tees, new bunkers, equals new hole. Wrong.
- Mike claimed the green had been plowed under.   Wrong Again.
- Mike claimed the bunkering key to the concept was not in place.  Wrong Again.  The greenside 'road hole' bunker was in place.  If it was changed at all (again a big if) it was merely expanded.    
- Mike seems to be arguing that hole was not a road hole  prior to these changes.  Wrong Again. The same paper had reported a year before that the hole was a reproduction of the road hole!

And why are you fudging my position by claiming that I challenged Mike to produce evidence of changes "around 1915."  "Around 1915" obviously doesn't cut it because, according to the Ledger in July 1915, the hole was a reproduction of the Road Hole.    I specifically requested that Mike back up his claims regarding changes made in preparation for the Amateur.  I also noted that Mike appears to be quite confused regarding the specific timing of all of this and about just what he is claiming, and asked him specifically about changes between July 1915 and the Amateur!

Quote
As for the sixth hole, I fail to understand your point.   In July of 1915 it was reported that the hole was a reproduction of the road hole.  At the time of the 1916 Amateur, the descriptions of the playability and strategies of the hole match that of the road hole.    Are you arguing that between July 1915 and September 1916, the hole was remodeled to be LESS like a road hole?   If so that would cut directly against the points you were trying to make yesterday!   If the opposite, it would reaffirm that the was intended to be a road hole from the beginning.  Either way, I fail to understand your point.  

You keep speaking of the complete redesign of this hole prior to the 1916 Amateur but you have produced NOTHING to support such a claim.

Mike hasn't adequately addressed any of my questions, and the April 23, 1916 article contradicts his claims!  
__________________________________________________________________

As for  the April 23, 1916 Ledger article, I suspect it might have been getting ahead of itself regarding these changes.  The same paper reported that changes to the sixth green began in the fall of 1916 and because of inclement weather, they were not completed until the spring of 1917. Here is the article. It confirms the work on the eighth and seventeenth the previous year, but says nothing about changes to the sixth green before the Amateur.   Perhaps the changes were planned but did not begin until the fall.  



_________________________________________

As for the general issue of adding bunkers later, so what?  If anyone ever bothered to actually read my IMO, they'd already know that I noted that many of the bunkers were added later.  And if anyone ever bothered to carefully read CBM's book, they will see that his was CBM's preferred methodology --build the course first, then add bunkers later after play has been observed  So in waiting to add some of the fairway bunkers later, Merion's approach was entirely consistent with CBM's methodology.  Given that Merion realized the value of his advice this should come as no surprise to anyone.

Of course there are certain bunkers - such as the the redan bunker and the road hole bunker - which have locations that are pretty fairly definitely set by the concept.   These bunkers were in place at Merion.   Merion's Redan was reportedly a redan from day one.  And the bunker at the left front of the Merion's Road Hole was in place as well.  It was expanded for the Amateur, not built.
_______________________________________________

The rest of Mike's claims are bizarre.  A biarritz is defined by the bunkers?  Idiotic.  At the point Merion built their version of the Biarritz (the 17th) it was a concept only.    To my knowledge there had never been a biarritz hole yet built in this country.  In fact there were none in the world -- CBM borrowed the concept from Biarritz in France (I think from a different hole than is commonly believed) but if I recall his comments correctly he was not a big fan of the actual underlying hole.)    

By the way I think Patrick is slightly off on this as well in that originally the Biarritz was not really defined by the green.   The original biarritz concept was mainly defined by 1) the distance of the hole 2) the hogs back or plateau ending about 30 yards from the green, and 3) the 30 yard wide swale between the first hogback or plateau and the green.  It gets confusing because CBM was also designing greens with swale across the middle such as Sleepy Hollow's sixth and Merion's second.  

So while today I think we would think of it as a Biarritz green, I agree with Jeff Brauer that the 2nd green had much in common with the double plateau concept.  And at this time, I don't think that this configuration of the double plateau and the Biarritz concept had yet been combined.  I disagree with his description of the 2nd green as stair step, unless he means one step down followed by one step up.  And I don't think that back left area was part of the green.  It isn't on any of the drawings or in any of the descriptions and in the aerial there seems to be a break between the green and the area.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 12:50:21 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2011, 12:48:07 AM »
To me, that pit and green extension combined have a very nice feel of the original at TOC.  Had that small pit (as opposed to a white face typical of the rest of the MCC course) not been built, and the green wrapped around it, it might be a road hole, but it was even a better road hole after the 1915 changes.

Again, this is NOT WHAT THE ARTICLE SAYS.  The pit was already there.   

And again the changes were described as happening in 1916, although it appears they were not started until after the Amateur and not completed until 1917.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2011, 01:02:16 AM »
David,

The chasm/gorge was an important, if not integral feature of the original Biarritz, but the early models in the U.S. Had that distinctive green as there identifier

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #117 on: May 23, 2011, 01:11:15 AM »
David,

The chasm/gorge was an important, if not integral feature of the original Biarritz, but the early models in the U.S. Had that distinctive green as there identifier

Patrick,  it would better be addressed in another thread, but I think it is unlikely that CBM's early biarritz concept came from the chasm hole.  So far as I know, neither CBM nor Whigham ever connected the biarritz concept with the "chasm hole."  The early descriptions do not mention a "chasm" and that'd be an odd detail to leave out!   There was another hole, one down in the Chambre d'Amore, that seems to be a much better fit to the early description of the biarritz.  Perhaps CBM combined the chasm concept with the concept from the other hole, but the early descriptions don't mention the chasm.  

(Wouldn't it me interesting if CBM got the idea for combining the concepts from Merion's quarry and what would eventually become Merion's 17th?)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #118 on: May 23, 2011, 01:17:47 AM »
David,

That might cause problems in PA

Yale, The Creek and Piping Rock all have the chasm feature

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #119 on: May 23, 2011, 01:40:50 AM »
David,

That might cause problems in PA

Surely. But that goes to show you just how screwed up the perspective of some in PA has become.   Imagine denying the obvious influence of CBM on a hole like the sixth at Merion!  It was and is a terrific golf hole because at it's bones it was directly modeled on the fundamental strategic principles underlying on of the world's greatest golf holes!   And even after all these years and changes and attempts to water down the concepts, it remains a terrific hole where vestiges of the original concept remain viable!

That to me this is absolutely awesome.  It casts Merion in an extremely favorable light and makes Merion even more relevant and impressive than it already was before I figured all of this stuff out!  Yet Merion is being duped and mislead by a couple of hacks and their lapdog, all with petty agendas, and all unable and unwilling to admit that someone else figured all this stuff out!   Ultimately, Merion's legacy suffers. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 01:42:33 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #120 on: May 23, 2011, 06:17:42 AM »
You guys are funny.   You're so desperate to try and cllaim Merion as a CBM course without a single shred of evidence that you're now arguing that CBM's template holes didn't have proscriptive bunkering patterns.  

That's desperation and it's transparent.

Sure, they had other features, such as the standard Biarritz "dip" between the front and back sections of green, and some of them were more descriptive of the natural contours such as "hogback", or "valley", but on nearly every template hole the holes are both visually and strategically defined by their bunkering pattern, usually in conjunction with a particular green orientation, or sometimes, its reverse.   But virtually every Biarritz on the planet also has long, framing, trench like bunkers curving along each side and that's undeniable.

I think you all need to read George Bahto's book and not come back here until you do your homework!  ;)  ;D

It gets even funnier when we have David Moriarty claiming that William Evans, who tells us that he has just been over the changes on the course in person, "is getting ahead of himself".

Well, no...he "suspects" that he's getting ahead of himself.

His whole agenda is also transparent and yes, desperate, where he's now seemingly crying out for attention because he's failed to prove his specious theories to ANYONE except CBM-hero-worshiping Patrick with statements like this;

That to me this is absolutely awesome.  It casts Merion in an extremely favorable light and makes Merion even more relevant and impressive than it already was before I figured all of this stuff out!  Yet Merion is being duped and mislead by a couple of hacks and their lapdog, all with petty agendas, and all unable and unwilling to admit that someone else figured all this stuff out!   Ultimately, Merion's legacy suffers.

Merion's legacy is suffering because nobody believes David's ridiculous theories!   You absolutely can't make this stuff up!  ;D

And Patrick...you have the nerve to ask people to come back to this site when you're backing a jerk just constantly spewing personally insulting garbage like that??!   You should be ashamed of yourself.

Thanks for the comedy routine David and Patrick...I needed a good laugh on an early Monday morning.   You guys deserve each other.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 06:26:36 AM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #121 on: May 23, 2011, 08:00:39 AM »
David,

As to the second green, yes the back looks too small to be a plateau to modern eyes, but I don't see the shaded area in the middle as a valley.  This puts me in an interesting position of having to decide who to believe (a la Groucho Marx) you, or my own eyes......

No one has yet mentioned that the hole is a par 4, whereas the 17th at TOC was surely still a par 5 at this time.  That is just one of the things that leads me to believe that the reason it was called a road hole was solely the OB carry on the right. 

I am not sure about the article you posted, but appreciate it.  It may be they were talking about turf. The Fw bunker shown in front of Guilford must have been the added left side fw bunker, though.  On the other hand, if the greenside bunker had been "enlarged" by the time of the photo you posted of the 1916 Am, it would have been little more than outhouse sized to start with, so perhaps you are right that this green, despite intentions, didn't get done in time for the Am. 

And I agree that the argument over every little detail and what it means to CBM's contribution is getting fairly ridiculous.  I like your commment - "It was and is a terrific golf hole because at it's bones it was directly modeled on the fundamental strategic principles underlying on of the world's greatest golf holes!   And even after all these years and changes and attempts to water down the concepts, it remains a terrific hole where vestiges of the original concept remain viable!" 

At times we all forget that we wouldn't be arguing at all if it weren't for the greatness of Merion.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #122 on: May 23, 2011, 08:03:34 AM »
Jeff,

The article David posted is referring to the old 6th green (today's 3rd).

It has nothing at all to do with the changes to today's 6th green (the old 3rd) that were described in William Evans article, much less changes to bunkering or green sizes and or orientations that took place as described by Evans.

As far as the Biarritz, that's a joke.   Every Biarritz hole MacRaynBanks built was a par three, yet they want to tell us any green with more than one level was either a Biarritz or a "Double Plateau".    This would be comical if there weren't folks here who are less versed with history and might be inclined to think these jokers actually knew what they were talking about.

I don't know if he's just getting careless or perhaps simply not letting facts get in the way of the story "he discovered".  

It smells like desperation to me.

These guys just want a moving target rather than simply giving proper attribution to the men who deserve it.

By this time CBM hadn't been to Merion in four fricking years, his second and final single day visit happening before a spade of dirt was turned.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 08:07:44 AM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #123 on: May 23, 2011, 08:12:43 AM »
Mike,

Well, I was reading the article during my first cup of Joe, and did not spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express!

I did like David's respectful comment as I mentioned.  It is ridiculous to continue to argue the relative merits of CBM's contributions.  Okay, he realized that the OB right of the tee resembled the Road Hole. (Or pointed out it was a great concept and they realized it)  It got built without him ever seeing it.  It got changed without him ever seeing it.

As I have said, he should probably get a lot more credit than he did a generation ago, and perhaps a little more than he got initially.  He advised and they acted largely on his advice, but since they never went back, we cannot say they followed it to a "T."  So, how do we attribute that design credit?  Not too much different than it was originally, I suspect, but perhaps with a bigger emphasis and detail on his good effect. 

While holes at Merion may not be the ones to discuss it, I would love to have a thread about holes that are so good inherently, that they cannot be screwed up with architectural changes!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #124 on: May 23, 2011, 10:14:39 AM »
Jeff,

It's funny...for years David and Tom MacWood have tried to cast doubt on the Philadelphia press crew (poor William Evans took a particularly nasty post-mortem beating for daring to write in October 1913 that Hugh Wilson, "some years ago before the new Merion course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect".  

Now evidently David is clinging to their every word!  ;)  ;D

Regardless, the shameless, transparent ploy that Moriarty, MacWood, and Mucci (the 3M's) try to foist over everyone here is that if they can create some doubt on the veracity of a writer with any single fact that can be called into question, they can then summarily dismiss whatever else they wrote, even if that writer was someone like Evans who was among the most connected and respected writers for decades.

However, their collective purposefully blind denial of facts gets us no closer to actually understanding these events clearly as they happened and as everyone who documented those events at that time understood them to happen.

For instance, their attempt to cast doubt on William Evans as a messenger because they don't like his message is really not valid, because A.W. Tillinghast, "Donald MacTee", "Sandy McNiblick", "Joe Bunker", "Billy Bunker", and other writers for other local papers also said Hugh Wilson designed Merion East.   What's more, I think we need to look a little deeper at what these men actually wrote about Wilson's trip abroad, particularly in light of the article Joe Bausch originally uncovered that shows by 1915 not much was actually done when Merion was originally grassed except that tees and greens were located and grassed, essentially.

Evans wrote;

Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new Merion course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect."

Before attempting to devalue Mr. Evan's opinion, perhaps the 3M's can tell us how that differs from what others at the time said and how they said it.

For instance, in February 1916, A.W. Tillinghast wrote;

"Certainly a reference to the Merion Course over which the championship of 1916 will be played, must be of interest. The course was opened in 1912, and the plans were decided upon only after a critical review of the great courses in Great Britain and America."

Later that year, in April for the Philadelphia Inquirer, author "Joe Bunker" wrote about Merion;

"Before anything was done to the course originally, Mr. Wilson visited every golf course of any note not only in Great Britain, but in this country as well, with the result being that Merion's East course is the last word in course architecture.   It has been improved each year until it is now nearly perfect from a golf point."

Earlier, in December, 1914, Joe Bunker wrote;

"Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of year’s chairman of the Green Committee at Merion Cricket Club has resigned.  He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country. “

In January 1913, right after the course opened, "Far and Sure" wrote for American Golfer;

"It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems, conceived by the construction committee ,headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson.   Mr. Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer, searching for ideas, many of which have been used."

And, we all know what Richard Francis wrote in 1950 about Wilson's trip abroad and its purpose;




So, I think in light of the fact that William Evans and many of these other authors seemed to be talking about "constructing" as creating the man-made golf course features that define the strategies (problems) of the holes, or the "mental hazards" as Alex Findlay termed it, then there is nothing erroneous at all about what William Evans wrote.  

These accounts, and others of the time, seem to have given credit to Wilson for both the basic "laying out" of the holes in their raw state, as a location and physical placement of tees, fairways, and greens, as well as the design and creation and "construction" of the "mental hazards" over time as play on the course was closely observed and determinations made on how best to challenge the top golfers, while still remaining playable and fun for the average club member.

Yet, it's undeniable that Merion and Wilson wanted to follow CBM's example and use ideas from the great holes overseas, even trying to create some outright copies, as we've seen.    At least initially, this seemed to be their thinking.   Over time, I believe they realized that it was more profitable to simply build the  natural holes suggested by the land and features at their disposal instead of getting trapped into the thinking that a golf hole had to be based on some proven method before being deemed worthwhile.

Nevertheless, this reality that Merion wanted to build a course based on ideal principles has caused a LOT of confusion here, as well as the overreaching and erroneous themes David has tried desperately to perpetuate, such that CBM actually routed the golf course when we all know that's not true.

This is what I think happened;

Let's go back to the Alex Findlay article that Joe posted some months back and start there.  

“I advised him, preparatory to his trip to Scotland, to watch carefully the seventeenth, or Alps hole, at Prestwick,  which he really imagined existed on his new course.  He is now convinced that it will take a lot of making to equal that famous old spot”. – Alex Findlay, talking about Hugh Wilson in May 1912 after Wilson’s return from overseas

What do you think Findlay means when he says that it will take a lot of making in this context?   As we already know, the golf course and the holes have already been routed, the basic tees and greens were placed on the ground, the greens and tees shaped and seeded, and now growing in.   That all happened over the previous year and now the course is months from opening so why would some hole concept still “take a lot of making”, or require much more work to be anything resembling the original?  

Let’s examine some previously stated assumptions as stated by the author of the Merion whitepaper published here;

1. Wilson has long been credited with designing the course based upon principles he learned while traveling abroad.    
2. This assumes he traveled abroad before the course was designed and built.    
3. But he did not travel abroad until after the course had been routed, planned, built, and the tees, greens, and fairways seeded, and at least some of the artificial features built.  
4. Therefore the initial routing, lay out plan, construction, tees, greens, fairways, and at least some of the artificial features could not have been based on what Wilson learned while traveling abroad.  

You may be very surprised to learn that I agree with almost everything written here with the exception perhaps that the first point is an overly broad generalization and oversimplification but the second point is where I’d like to get more specific because I’m not sure it’s a valid assumption.

I want to be sure I address this comprehensively, and I guess we have enough generally agreed examples to work with using Merion holes 3 (redan), 10 (Alps), and 15 green (Eden Green) that consensus concurs that were based on some overseas principles.  

Let’s start with the redan hole, the third.    

Richard Francis tells us directly that this is one of the holes that “benefited” from Hugh Wilson’s overseas visit and that “the location of the hole lent itself to this design”.

You’ll notice he doesn’t say that they found that location while looking for a redan hole.   He states that they located the hole first, and only then, working within the possibilities and constraints of their natural conditions, determined that applying some redan principles to that location might work well.

This is wholly consistent with what Francis tells us about the purpose of Wilson’s trip abroad.  Francis also tells us clearly that the idea all along was to “incorporate their good features on our course” AFTER Wilson returned in May of 1911.

How could this be?   Weren’t the holes already “designed” before Wilson went abroad, as you rightfully ask?

The simple answer is, no, they weren’t designed.    Eighteen tees and greens were fitted into the property in a routing, again using the natural features and conditions at their disposal on the property that had been selected as their canvas.

None of these tasks required Wilson to go abroad to study first because all they were using at this point was their own carefully studied knowledge of the property, their understanding of good golf holes in the U.S. through their own individual experiences playing golf at a high level nationally for over a decade, as well as what knowledge Macdonald had imparted regarding agronomics and construction techniques, as well has his knowledge of the great holes abroad that he communicated during their visit with him at NGLA (as well as seeing CBM's versions of those holes at NGLA).

All of the early accounts mentioned that what was built at first was incomplete, that there were very few bunkers and pits, and that “mental hazards” and additional strategies would be added later.   THAT was the purpose of Wilson’s trip abroad…to see in person the type of great hole strategies they had discussed with Macdonald and now wished to apply to their evolving golf course.

Some months ago,  we had a great debate here re: whether the 3rd hole was indeed a redan, because it does not have the characteristic green sloping front to back, and tilted severely to the low side.  In fact, the 3rd green at Merion slopes back to front, the opposite of what you would expect.

If you think about the definition of the great holes abroad, almost every one of them are self-defined by a few key attributes, and in almost every case it’s not due to some natural feature that needs to be present, but due instead to the placement of artificial hazards which determine strategy.   THAT is what makes them somewhat repeatable.   Almost every template hole is self-defined by its bunkering pattern which defines the hole strategy…the road hole, the redan, the eden, the short, the alps…

I would contend that when the Merion course was first routed, shaped, and seeded, the 3rd hole was simply a tee in a valley, and a green located on a plateau hilltop, much like probably hundreds of uphill par threes in existence, although that barn-top abrupt rise does make it admittedly a bit special.

If nothing else was done to the hole after that it would still be a very good hole…it could even be bunkerless and would be a very good hole.

Yet, to apply some of what they saw as “redan principles”, the Wilson committee decided to build the key “redan bunker” into the face of the hill diagonally to one side (which Francis tells us was the basement of the barn), and also put some “high side” bunkering in on the left to catch the golfer playing a bit too cautiously away from the visually obvious front-right hazard.    

I would contend that those bunkers, and thus the entire hole strategy as a “redan” were added AFTER Wilson’s return from abroad.   The green design doesn’t exactly fit the redan concept because as you mentioned, that was already done and in place.   But we already know they weren’t looking for exact copies…they were simply looking to implement specific features and principles of great holes abroad and apply them to their natural inland conditions.

So it goes with the other examples.   Robert Lesley tells us the “principle” of the Alps Hole they wanted to copy was the large crossing bunker in front of the green, and possibly the large mound behind.    Well, we already know that when Wilson returned from his trip abroad and spoke with Findlay, he admitted that to create anything like the original Alps, “it would take a lot of making.”

But what about the “Eden Green” on the 15th, I’m sure you’re thinking.    Didn’t that require previous intent?   After all, it was built with a large back to front slope and we know that it was roundly criticized as too severe, as was the 8th, which Francis tells us “originally…took the contour of the hillside so that players had to play onto a green which sloped sharply away from them.”   The 8th green was rebuilt before 1916.  

In the case of the 15th, we know that Tillinghast claimed it sloped so much from back to front that players had to “skittle” their approach shots up to the front.

But, was it an Eden green because of the back to front slope, which on the uphill 15th also probably originally took much of “the contour of the hillside”, or was it the typical Eden bunkering pattern, where a large front right bunker cut into the face of the upslope is only matched in challenge and difficulty by the “Hill bunker” to the left, where those playing away from the more obvious frontal attack often end up?

Once again, I’d contend that the bunkering created the strategy of that approach, and defined the principles they wanted to copy from overseas on the 15th.   Of course, this doesn't even mention that fact that all of the Eden holes built by CBM and his followers were par threes, not fours.

There was also some previous speclation that the 6th hole had some characteristics of a Road Hole, and I agreed.   What made it a road hole?

Well, we know it had a property boundary on the right but that was simply happenstance of the routing.   However, Merion CHOSE to utilize that boundary and you told us that they created a tee area that required a carry over the corner, built some large mounding in that corner, and then build a large hazard left of the green to challenge those playing too cautiously away from the boundary on the drive.

Once again, these are/were all artificial touches that created the hole strategies, and that were added AFTER the course was routed, based on what Wilson learned abroad, and based on how the Merion committee determined to apply them to the natural conditions at their disposal.

So, to draw an alternate timeline,  this is what it looks like to me;

Jan – early march 1911 – Wilson and Committee create many golf course layouts, none of which they are completely satisfied with.

March 1911 – Visit Macdonald at NGLA and gain some valuable insight based on seeing drawings of holes abroad as well as hearing CBM pontificate on their principles, followed by a day seeing his application of those principles at NGLA.

March – April 6th – Wilson and Committee take what they’ve learned and created “five different” course layouts.   Macdonald makes his second visit to the property and after reviewing the land and the proposed layouts carefully, helps the committee select the best routing.

April 19th – The Merion Board gives approval to the selected and recommended plan and construction proceeds forthwith.

Late April – Fall 1911 – Construction of 18 tees and greens consistent with the routing that attempts to take best advantage of the natural features of the property takes place and by fall the property is seeded.

Winter 1911-12 – Wilson tells us that the committee worked all winter, although it’s unclear what they were doing at this point.

March 1912-May 1912 – Wilson goes abroad to study.

May 1912 – Sept 1912 – Wilson puts the first “overseas touches” on the golf course, almost certainly in the form of bunkers and mounding influence play and creating internal, artificial hole strategies that he emulates based on great holes he has now both seen and discussed with Macdonald through sketches and Mac’s NGLA versions, as well as the originals he’s seen with his own eyes.  Some of it was termed "experimental".

Sept 1912 – Sept 1916 – This work continues slowly because the natural hazards make the course difficult and challenging enough for the average member.   Work accelerates in mid 1915 when Merion is awaded the US Amateur of 1916.




« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 10:27:29 AM by MCirba »