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Carl Nichols

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2011, 06:21:54 PM »
If the place is close to brick hard then strategic choices will be needed to get in the right position.

On how many holes will the choice on the tee be something other than the tradeoff between hitting driver and decreasing the chance of being in the fairway, vs. hitting something less and increasing those odds?  If it's hard and fast and the rough is penal, isn't finding the short grass going to be much more important than finding a particular angle?  
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 06:33:07 PM by Carl Nichols »

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2011, 07:29:05 PM »
What I find so interesting about Merion as an Open venue is that it was most definitely designed to be a strategic course where the line off of the tee very much mattered, because it determined the difficulty of the next shot.  But this sort of strategic design generally depends upon wide fairways.  I am interested whether any of this type of horizontal strategy still exists at Merion, or whether it has been negated by narrower fairways and tree growth.

Does the course as is present the types of horizontal strategic choices off the tee as was originally intended? Perhaps those familiar with the course can fill me in.  

There are many potential examples of how width and horizontal strategy came into play initially. Here are just a few:

No. 6.   The sixth was designed to play with "a road hole" strategy, where the golfer faced an option off the tee of playing directly over the O.B (at one point a corn field) which jutted into the course  right in front of the tee, and along the out of bounds right.  This was to have left the golfer with a preferred angle and shorter shot to the plateau green, while avoiding the nasty bunker at the left front corner of the green.    The safer route was out to the left but this left a longer shot to a difficult to hold plateau green and no way to run it up because of the left fronting pit.  

While according to JES this hole still requires a three wood or driver, does the line of the drive ever even into the equation, or is the goal simply to hit the fairway?   Does anyone even consider the O.B. anymore, or is it too far out of play to worry about?  

No. 7.  While never a long hole, the seventh was nonetheless an interesting hole using the slope of the ground and the out of bounds to create a natural "bottleneck" as one approached the green, which because of the shape and contours was easiest to hit and hold from alongside the out of bounds right.   As one approached the green this area became narrower and narrower.   Golfers who unsuccessfully tried to go too far up into this natural bottle neck saw there balls either out of bounds or rejected down the slope to the left, thus leaving a very difficult and unforgiving angle into the green.  

Now there are trees along the out of bounds line to the right, but would the hole be more interesting for pros and amateurs alike if one could hug the right side O.B. for a better angle in?   Would it even matter?  What if the green was rock hard, so that it was difficult to hold a ball from well below the hole on the left?

A shot of Chick Evans, near the property line, 1916.


Bobby Jones, as a teenager, 1916, caught in the greenside bunker on his second.   


And one of Bobby Jones, circa 1930.


No. 14.   The horizontal strategy on this hole was somewhat dictated by the out-of-bounds and by the orientation of the "double plateau" green.   As can be seen in the linked photo below (from the Hagley library collection) the 14th fairway used to extend all the way to the Golf House Rd., thus giving the golfer an opportunity of hugging the out of bounds left and setting up a shorter and approach and avoiding having to carry the bunker at the short right of the green.  Also the golfer could play for position depending upon the pin location and orientation of the plateaus.

Are there any horizontal choices off the tee, or is it more a matter of just trying to hit the fairway?  Were the tees to remain as they are, would any of the professionals hit driver?   If they could cut the corner toward the left bunker, would they?

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2011, 08:42:21 PM »
David,

1. #6 and 7 clearly favor an approach from the right side as you can see from your picture of #7 above. I have hit OB right on both holes for sure. I think the holes on #7 protect the neighbors more than change the hole.

2. The only place I ever think of trees being in play are #7 if you are along the right edge and in the old days #12 from the tee and maybe some very errant shots on a few holes including #2 and #16. Many are gone now, but Merion from my memory was never a parkland style course.

3. Great aerial of #14, and I don't have a very good answer to your questions.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2011, 10:46:46 PM »
David,

Very cool pics.

Has the routing changed since then?  Because in that 1st pic, it shows the boundary along the so called "4th hole".  However, the current #4, if I understand it correctly, is an interior hole...after the par 3 3rd hole.

Thanks in advance for any clarification on this.

Kalen

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2011, 08:52:34 AM »
Jim Sullivan,

Do you feel that hitting driver on 4 of 12 par 4's should inherently disqualify Merion as the venue for a US Open ?

D_Malley

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2011, 09:36:36 AM »
David,

Very cool pics.

Has the routing changed since then?  Because in that 1st pic, it shows the boundary along the so called "4th hole".  However, the current #4, if I understand it correctly, is an interior hole...after the par 3 3rd hole.

Thanks in advance for any clarification on this.

Kalen

the routing did change the current #7 was at one point #4

on a different note, i posted this on the Seve thread.
I was speaking to Seve's tour caddy (81-87) who frequently uses the putting green at my course.  He claims that Seve was the only player in the entire field to get on the fourth green in two during the 81 open.

I also have it from a very reliable source that there will be a new tee on #4 that will be 50+ yards behind the current tee.

ChipOat

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2011, 10:36:50 AM »
D_Malley,

I'm not saying your source is incorrect re: a new championship tee box on #4 but, for the life of me, I can't envision where it could be without completely interrupting the flow of play on #7 and, possibly, the 3rd green.

50 yards further back would put it squarely in the left rough about 150 yards from the 7th tee box.  Even if the club brought in a couple of big trees to protect it, there's no way anybody on #'s 4 or 7 would tee of until the other was clear.

Actually, I'm not sure I like the idea as it would (I think), then make the second shot a lay-up - how boring.  From the current location, there should be a lot of "do I or don't I?" depending on the tee shot, the lie, the wind and the rough around the green.  Now THAT would be exciting. 

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2011, 11:45:06 AM »
Jim Sullivan,

Do you feel that hitting driver on 4 of 12 par 4's should inherently disqualify Merion as the venue for a US Open ?


Two things Pat - first is that I assume they'll use the new tee on #14 so that's a fifth Driver and I personally would always hit driver on #12 although I recognize some guys may not...regardless, that's a sixth for me so 6 out of 12 plus both par 5's is pretty good IMO. The guys only hit driver at Shinnecock on 1, 3, 6, 9(some of the time), 12 and 18 and at Pebble on 2, 9, 10, 13 and 15.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2011, 11:50:04 AM »
D_Malley,

I'm not saying your source is incorrect re: a new championship tee box on #4 but, for the life of me, I can't envision where it could be without completely interrupting the flow of play on #7 and, possibly, the 3rd green.

50 yards further back would put it squarely in the left rough about 150 yards from the 7th tee box.  Even if the club brought in a couple of big trees to protect it, there's no way anybody on #'s 4 or 7 would tee of until the other was clear.

Actually, I'm not sure I like the idea as it would (I think), then make the second shot a lay-up - how boring.  From the current location, there should be a lot of "do I or don't I?" depending on the tee shot, the lie, the wind and the rough around the green.  Now THAT would be exciting. 

chipoat,

And thats exactly why you don't work for the USGA.  Thier idea of "compelling" golf is watching pros butcher thier way around the course struggling for a par on each hole.  If they can get home in 2 on 4, this would make for too many easy pars....hence be no good!  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2011, 12:12:10 PM »
Jim,

I'm not so sure about your Shinny and PB stats.

In addition, while conditions differ, driver seems to be the club of choice on almost every hole at PB during the ATT.

I seem to remember one of the golf magazines publishing the tournament stats, (Fairways, GIR, Putts, etc.,etc.)
It would be interesting to see the correlation between driving distance and fairways hit in regulation at the Opens.
It would have been even more helpful to know fairway widths in conjunction with hole yardage.

Somewhere, perhaps someone has these stats.

It would be interesting to study the FIR, Distance and GIR stats on a per hole basis

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2011, 12:47:22 PM »
Pat,

I think you'll agree the decisions on which club to hit off a tee during the AT&T at Pebble are substantially different than those during the US Open...my estimates were just that because undoubtedly there are players that hit Driver on holes I didn't list and don't hit Driver on holes I did. The same thing will happen at Merion...but what's important at Merion is that Driver COULD be hit on all but #11.

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2011, 03:11:29 PM »
David,

I haven't played TOC, NGLA or any other "Road Hole" that I'm aware of to compare #6 to, but it does feature those shot options you ask about to at least a certain extent. Was the original tee further right than today? This would increase the angle over the corner...

Re #7: Yes, they have planted border pine trees so you do not get the same visual as the pictures from 80+ years ago but there is a very real decision off the tee in which exactly matches those you describe. The ideal tee shot is about 220 down the right center/right edge of the fairway. Any longer and you have to aim a bit more left and lose the angle with each yard...any shorter and your stance increases in difficulty as it's some part of downhill/sidehill back to a nice flat spot at about 175 into the green...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2011, 08:15:25 PM »
Pat,

I think you'll agree the decisions on which club to hit off a tee during the AT&T at Pebble are substantially different than those during the US Open..

Why do you think that is ?

Is it strictly the rough ?

What else could it be ?

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 08:47:21 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2011, 08:20:41 PM »
Mike Sweeney,
Thanks for the response.  I was thinking only of the 7th regarding the trees, although I know some here have argued that the there is a tree to the left of the tee/shoot on the 10th that limits one's options there.    I was more thinking of the fairway widths.   For example on the 7th I have the impression at that an offline ball would have run well left leaving a very difficult angle.  With the narrower fairway corridor, I wonder if the rough stops balls from suffering that fate.  Likewise on other tilted fairway locations such as the right side of the 15th and left side of the 4th.

Jim Sullivan,
Judging from the early descriptions and the early aerials it seems that the original tee may have been on a line to the right of the current tee. So originally the out of bounds would have been staring the golfer more in the face and forcing a choice of how much of the OB to carry.  In other words it was more akin to the choice presented at the other Road Holes. 

Here again, an aerial circa 1925 (from the Hagley Museum.)  Notice 2nd green was still in its original location, about thirty yards shorter and closer to Ardmore Avenue. There are a series of tees starting close the the green, and there may have been another tee left of and just behind the green as well.

The aerial unfortunately cuts off, but it still shows how wide the fairway was on this hole, thus allowing for a large fan of driving angles, and a number of different angles (and distances) of approach.



As for the 7th, thanks for the confirmation.   Any opinion on my comments above to Mike?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2011, 09:39:27 PM »
Pat,

I think you'll agree the decisions on which club to hit off a tee during the AT&T at Pebble are substantially different than those during the US Open..

Why do you think that is ?

Is it strictly the rough ?

What else could it be ?



Pat,

I don't think it's the rough much at all, it's the firmness of the greens which make it both more difficult to get anywhere near the hole from good positions and easier to get into bad trouble from bad tee shot positions...implied in that is that it's also more difficult to get it in the fairway/best position to approach the green because once the ball starts bouncing they have a little less control over it.

The 10th hole was a pretty cool case study during one of the rounds because the wind was very strong from behind and the guys were hitting wedge and sand wedge in due to the wind and very hard ground. I don't think the scoring average dropped much on the hole that day from the standard mid-iron approach to softer greens.

The firmness of the golf course makes position exponentially more difficult, as will be the case at Merion. I believe the case will be exagerated at Merion due to the large number of iron/wedge holes...IF par is the goal.

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2011, 09:50:07 PM »
David,

Those tees for #6 don't look to be on a much different line than today, it's still a walk across them to get to the third tee. The fairway is certainly tremendously different now...and for as long as I can remember...~20 years. All I can say is that in the context of a US Open, that width would be excessive on a long hole because you'd take away any concern. The hole is long right now and I assume they'll use the back tee at least three of the four days and from the back tee there will not be many hitting less than driver.

As for #7, there is a point when the tilt of the ground switches from to-the-right over to to-the-left. I've never hit a club that would reach the part that tilts to-the-left but I've seen others do so. Your picture of Chick Evans shows this a little. He's standing in the ideal "crotch" of the swale. Everything behind him tilts right. The "crotch" runs at an angle from short right at maybe 120 to the center to long left at maybe 75 or 80 to the center. To reach any slope running left you have to take on some risk with the distance you're intending to hit the tee shot. Other than getting it 30 or 40 yards from the green (about 290 into a narrow area) I've never seen the reward being worth the risk...that being said, I've peppered those houses out to the right in recent plays so an adjustment might be in order...

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2011, 10:00:39 PM »
David,

Do we have any good images of the green complex on #6 from early on?

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2011, 12:58:58 AM »
Jim,  I may be mistaken, but I think the tee is further left now, by quite a ways.  I think it is deceptive because the new green is further left than this one.  Look at the location of the tees in relation to the 5th green and I think you can see that at least the first one (closest to the 2nd green) is much further away than the current tee.  

Also, while I am not sure, I wonder if the original tee was right behind the 2nd green, to the left of the rear bunker visible in this photo.   Notice that there are two paths to/from the second green area, one to/from the green itself, and one from paths runs to/from the mowed area behind the left side of the green.  

This particular aerial does not show the 6th green.  A few later ones do, but changes had been made.  I think I have a few photos from the 1916 Amateur I'll try to dig up when I get the chance.  

Here is the 6th green from June 1930.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 01:14:09 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2011, 11:10:38 AM »



David,

The configuration of those two sets of tees in comparison to the 5th green is very similar currently to that picture with the exception of some added length on both 3 and 6. If there was a shift to the left of the 6th tee, from that picture to now, I would say it was just a few yards. As for the two paths coming off the 2nd green, I'm sure it's possible one was from a tee but my primary question would be...why would someone tee off there and then walk down to the other tees? The path would most likely go out to the fairway if it was primarily a tee. I think it's just two different paths off the green and down to the next tee. A better image might change that opinion.


As for the 1930 image of the 6th green, that is a good one, but it has none of the characteristics of my impression of a Road Hole green other then the steep embankment up. The angle of approach is hardly suggested by that green configuration. I'll bet the 1916 pictures show something different.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2011, 11:39:26 AM »
Not a photo but this 1916 drawing by William Flynn provides a pretty good indication of the hole and green configuration;


JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2011, 11:45:46 AM »
Sure does, thanks Mike. First thing that jumped out at me was the pinched fairway at the driving area.

Flynn sure did improve his drawing skills as he went because the detail he provides in other plans are several degrees better than these drawings for the tournament.



David,

I think this hole could best be described as taking a couple aspects of the Road Hole concept without taking all of it...would you agree?

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2011, 02:33:42 PM »
Jim,

As for the location of the tees, as I said you could be correct, but we'll have to agree to disagree until I have time to put together an overlay or something.  And I see three tee boxes left of the second green, not two.

As for path to/from behind the 2nd green, I don't think it was a path from the tee, I think it was the path to the tee.  At this point in time wasn't this the road hole No. 6?  So golfers would have been trekking from the 5th green to the sixth tee. Follow the path and it looks like it comes from the 5th green. 

Here is the image closer up.  You can see the green with the biarritz-type swale running through the middle of it, but it also seems that there was an elevated and maintained area behind the back left corner of the green.  If this wasn't a tee, what was it?   A picnic area?


And here from June 1930 (again from the terrific Hagley collection.)   It looks as if work is being done on the course in preparation for the 1930 amateur (to be held in September) and the holes and tees have been marked, and they appear to be working on this teeing area.   


First, note that the out of bounds has been reconfigured. In 1924, the OB line everything but the bunker was OB at the corner.  By 1930 the fence had been pushed back and one could play over the bunker without playing over the out of bounds. 

Second, note that while the area behind and left of the green was no longer being maintained, there is still what appears to be the traces of a path from this area to to the corner and the fairway, as would be created if golfers had been teeing off from this area.



David,

I think this hole could best be described as taking a couple aspects of the Road Hole concept without taking all of it...would you agree?

I guess it depends on what you mean but "a couple of aspects."  For example, there was no road.  But generally,no, I wouldn't agree.  The hole was referred to as a "Road Hole" and early descriptions of how the hole played are very much in line with the strategies of a road hole.   So, I'd have to say that Merion tried to build a hole with the strategic underpinnings of road hole.  Over the years this concept has been watered down some, but originally the hole was intended to play as a road hole!

As for the 1916 Flynn diagram from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, like many of those early Flynn drawings, it is not an perfectly accurate depiction and is not consistent with descriptions of the hole at the time, or with photos, or with the aerials earliest aerials from mid-1925.   Using these newspaper drawings as if they were blueprints is questionable at best.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2011, 03:14:16 PM »
David,

I see the third line of teeing area now, but I still don't see anything right off the back left corner of the second green. Why wouldn't we if the other tee pads are pretty clear? As for the path up there, it's in front of the other back tees, isn't that counterintuitive to you?

When I say it looks like the hole had some of the concepts of the original as opposed to all of the concepts I was thinking specifically of the green orientation and Road Bunker. In the end, you could put the hotel and railroad shed in there but if the green orientation and design doesn't make it awfully compelling to challenge the right edge of the fairway then you lose alot of the total concept in my opinion. Maybe the original green did that and we just haven't seen the picture yet.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2011, 03:20:40 PM »
I think the green from 1930 in the aerial looks somewhat like the green in the 1916 Flynn drawing, although obviously not to scale.

Perhaps part of the issue is that by 1916, that green was one of those plowed up and remodeled for the 1916 US Amateur by Hugh Wilson and William Flynn.   The 8th, 9th, and 17th greens were also significantly changed at that time.

At the same time, the left green-side bunker was enlarged and the left fairway bunker in the landing area was built.

I think Jim's point is that host "Road Hole" greens tend to be slender, table-top after the swale and more diagonally positioned, with a "road" type hazard running along the right just behind the green at a diagonal, as well as a left-center prominent pit jutting into the very vitals, as one wag put it.

***EDIT*** Jim, our posts crossed.   Great minds.

JESII

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Re: Merion - where's the strategy off the tee for the pro?
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2011, 03:26:50 PM »
Jim,

Here is the image closer up.  You can see the green with the biarritz-type swale running through the middle of it, but it also seems that there was an elevated and maintained area behind the back left corner of the green.  If this wasn't a tee, what was it?   A picnic area?




David,

Regarding this specific question...the entire area around the green appears maintained at an equal degree to your "elevated and maintained area off the back left corner"...

Do you agree that it's fairway height grass all the way over to the road and around the two back bunkers?

Also, do you see a little entry from Ardmore Ave off the back right corner of the green? That could be a maintenance entrance whose carts caused the path you're seeing...