[BCrosby]

TEP said:

  "I tell them that the sign of a hole that is not working well is one that has a relatively narrow scoring range and a hole that's a very good one has a far wider scoring range!"

A fascinating way to distinguish good holes from bad/mediocre holes.  I think you are right.  

It wouldn't be hard to test.  The PGA may keep those numbers for each tournament.  I know ANGC keeps them for the Masters.  Given that most of us are familiar with the holes at Augusta, I would be fun to see how the numbers come out on a hole by hole basis.

[Bob (Guest)]

ajf -

you're right - there is more compaction (more weight per square inch) with a walk mower than a triplex.  It seems to defy logic but it is true.

Assuming the greens aren't huge isn't it easier and less expensive to just walk mow the entire green.  You're taking a one man job and turning it into at least a two man job.

The walk mowers are also better for greens with little or no collar or turn around space.

I also agree with ajf in that the collar is a playability issue similar to a "courtesy" cut around fairways.  It provides a transition from the putting surface to the penalizing rough.  It provides a "more appropriate" punishment for a small degree of error in an approach shot.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

BCrosby

If you do "hole-by-hole" posting of scores, as Tom Paul has advocated for some time here in the US and as they regularly do in the UK, this sort of anlysis would be easy as pie.

[Jeff_Brauer]

From an architectural perspective, no one has mentioned the impact on design.  

I usually ascertain how the owner will likely mow the greens.  If it is triplex, I make sure the bunkers are at least six, and preferably eight feet off the putting surface.  Actually, I draw them about five feet, because is seems that dozer guys build both the green and bunkers from the inside of the stakes, and try to leave the stakes standing, meaning that the bunker usually unintentionally "creeps" about 2 feet away from the green during construction.

From a good player's perspective, bunkers 8 or more feet off the putting surface really don't impact play very much, but do tend to trap the higher handicappers.  For a real test, it's best to have the bunkers as close as possible, which may be what TEPaul was driving at originally.

However, even if the owner insists that the green will always be hand mown, I am sometimes reluctant to put the bunkers within a few feet of the green.  I always wonder if the decision is being made with a time perspective - that is, in the next recession, will we be forced to go with the economies of riding mowers, despite our best intentions?  If you don't leave turning room, you are stuck with hand mowing.

Perhaps the ideal solution is for Toro and competitors to continue to develop really light weight riding mowers, so we can have the best of both worlds.

Of course, the actual turning room depends on the operator as much as the equipment.  I worked golf course maintenance for a few summers in college to prep for my eventual career, and I occaisonally put a riding greens mower in a bunker adjacent to a green, even with about 12 feet of turning room, but with a tricky bank.

Worse yet, I was in charge of mowing some University of Illinois turf test plots next door with a hand mower.  On my first attempt, I put the mower through a fence and almost into the Des Plaines drainage canal, despite about 20 feet of turning room!  

(What were those instructions.....pick up front of mower and then release the drive cluth, or the other way around?  D'OH!) If you can picture the cartoons with the siluohette of the roadrunner's nemesis, Wiley Coyote in a wall he has just gone through, you can picture my predicament that day!

Handling those mowers can be tricky, and don't think for that those guys out there working on your course are merely "grass cutters" as they are running some high tech equipment for your benefit and there truly is a science to everything.

[MN_turfguy]

ajf -

you're right - there is more compaction (more weight per square inch) with a walk mower than a triplex.  It seems to defy logic but it is true.

Your going to have to show me how that is true.  I just did a little research of my own.

Jacobsen Greensking V

Tires are 10 inches wide, but you know an inch on each side doesn't contact the surface.  Let's say contact patch is 3" x 8"?  That makes for 72 square inches of contact area.  Gross vehicle weight (not including cutting units) on the lightest form (2wd gas) is 895 lbs.  Now add 175 for a rider to equal 1070.  1070/72 equals  14.88 lbs/sq inch

Jacobsen pgm 22

Drum is 16 inches wide.  Contact patch is 1 x 16?  16 square inches of contact.  Mower weight (inlcuding cutting unit and front roller) is 178 lbs.  178/16 equals 11.13 lbs/sq inch.  That does not take into account the minor relief caused by contact of the front roller.

My own personal observations, all math aside, are that the compaction is greater with triplex mowers, and wear (especially on the edges) is much greater from triplex tires than walking rollers.  If you can show me some studies or examples of how it can be the other way, I'd be very interested to see.

[TEPaul]

JeffB:

Nice going on the mowers! If you and I happen to be riding together and we need to cross something like the Verazzano or Golden Gate Bridge, I'll drive!!

[ajf]

don,

i have no idea what your budget is, how many rounds you get, what size your greens are or even were your course is.  i don't think it's necessary to make a clean up pass every time you mow.  i do think that a triplexed green with 3 or 4 rings of a walk mower is unattractive.  if you have some greens with these sharp curves, smooth them out a bit to enhance the turf.  my point was, a ring can be made with either a triplex or a walk behind.  and it's not so much a bad idea as a symptom of other problems.

i'm not sure why you took such a defensive tone.  i don't think it's a good idea.  if you are killing grass with 2 clean up passes a week from a triplex, something else is wrong.  it's not the mower.  
    

ajf,
Actually it's a damn good solution to preventing maintenance problems. Summer triplex clean up passes on bent greens under heat stress leads to dirt rings. Lots of guys who can't walk mow all the time use walkers for the clean up pass, so I'm not sure where you are coming from. Maybe if you posted under your name and told us which course you managed we could debate this issue a little more in depth.

I have a small crew and I have to triplex on the weekends, but since we quit doing clean ups with the rider our edges are a lot better. I guess I don't understand why using two different mowers is a poor practice as long as the results are good.

BTW, I have some pretty tight curves on my greens and the triplex, regardless of any compaction issues, simply could not consistently mow the clean up pass without bruising the turf. Remember, when mowing a tight turn the cutting unit on the outside may be fine, but the one on the inside is basically turning in place (toro 3100's don't have individual reel control) which can harm the turf.

[Don_Mahaffey]

ajf,
My defensive tone came from your statement that it was poor maintenance practice. You hit the nail on the head when you said you know very little about my course. Fact is, there are many maintenance practices that work in some areas that are unthinkable in others. There are very few absolutes in golf course maintenance. For me to tell someone half way around the world that he is using poor practices would be absurd, what do I know about his operation or conditions? In my area, Arizona, it gets damn hot in the summer, and no matter how hard we try we some times end up with puffy turf that can easily be damaged. During those times we have to baby the turf, and doing clean ups with walkers, (only one pass) is one way some guys deal with it. We do clean ups twice a week this time of year and three times a week when the turf is growing a little more. Come out to AZ in the summer and you'll understand why we do it, and why it's difficult with a small crew to walk mow every day. These bulletin boards are good ways to spread ideas, but they get a little contentious when criticisms are leveled without all the facts.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Following up on my maintenance related threads elsewhere, this issue is also affected by design.  Sharp curves can be horizontal, as noted in posts above, but also vertical!

I have noticed that any elevated edge rolls in putting surfaces edges dry out more quickly, and are more prone to damage than other areas.  Similar problems seem to exist where a major drainage swale happens to coincide with a major traffic entry/exit point to the green.  I have also seen rolling green edges suffer more when exposed to the prevailing wind.  In Texas, I am careful not to roll edges dramatically if facing south with bent (summer winds dry these out) or north with Bermuda (winter winds can cause freeze damage).

I suspect the weakening of turf stems from a host of environmental factors, and it makes sense that the clean up pass that is subject of more mowing, turns rather than straight passes, combined with the drying associated with the mounded putting surface all combine to cause the problem.  The turf may take one or two stress factors, but if hit with a triple whammy, even a magician would be at a loss to turn the turf green.

When you criticise the mild contouring on the next course you play, try considering those kind of maintenance factors that an architect probably considered equally to any challenge in putting, or unique chipping situation he may create with greater contour.  Of course, when you start critiquing the performance of a superntendent, you should also consider what type of problems the architect (or even his own green committee) has left him to deal with.  The old butter/margerine commercial is never more true than with superintendents - it's not only not nice to fool mother nature, it's not possible!

[Jeff_Brauer]

TEPaul,

To quote the "Rainman" (Dustin Hoffman) - "I am an excellent driver!"  I always make my new guys try to run mowers if they haven't otherwise, as it's a whole new ball of wax.

MN Turf Guy,

I recall learning that a woman in high heels exerts more pressure on the ground than a d-6 Caterpiller!  By using a "square factor" the contact area is far more important than the total weight.  Her 120 lbs is exerted on only .25 inches!  for a whopping 480 pounds/ square inch!  The heavier cat has several S.F. of tread which allows it to run on muddy surfaces where the poor lady would just sink.

However, something tells me that the total weight, larger size affecting turning ability and relationship of the mowing blades to machine probably does cause more damage to the cleanup pass.

[ajf]

don,

actually i lived in lake havasu for 7 years so i do know what an arizona summer is.  i also lived in california and new many supers in the palm springs area.  the best bentgrass greens i have ever seen were at some of these courses in palm springs, in the middle of summer.  the summer is the off season, rounds are down and the greens looked great.  

if you only need to make one clean up pass with the walk behind, it wont look to bad.  it seems to me that would leave some little pieces unmown between the edge and the middle of the green.  

i can certainly empathize with the problems of a small crew and a small budget.  but i wasn't telling you anything.  i was just expressing my opinion of what i thought was a poor maintenance practice.  i've seen supers manage this problem without going through what you described and i know it can be done, especially in the southwest.  

really, this is nothing personal.      

[Don_Mahaffey]

ajf,
Nothing personal here. We just are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't know many supers who go out of their way to create more work for themselves, but if you think the methods matter more than the results, so be it. I've included a link from Dr. Kopec at the Univ. of AZ Karsten Turf Research Center that also addresses the problems we are discussing.

http://ag.arizona.edu/turf/glf0698.html

I'm from Palm Springs and I too remember some of their bent green courses. There are some different issues between that area and ours, higher humidity during monsoon season, use of high N effluent water.... but the fact is bent greens in the PS area are on the way out because there is a lot more play in the summer now then in the past and the improved Bermuda varieties are nearly as good.

[GTiska]

Jeff,
  Excellant point you bring up... The architect must allow the super to be involved when it comes to issues of mowability.
Green contours being the most important. Some green contours can not be mowed. The 16 green at East Hampton being an example. Great green concept but it can not be mowed with any hand or triplex mower without scalping. This causes turf to be lost...making the super look bad. But isn't it the architect's job to make sure his/her designs can be maintained?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mr. Tiska,
  When were you brought on at EHGC? I'm surprised that C&C wouldn't didn't have your input if you were there. I saw several pics of #16..the area were there was problems. I worked at Friar's Head this summer and heard good things about The Bridge from the mechanic at FH and also the intern at Atlantic. I think that I will be heading back out east to finish up at FH, I would love to come out and see you place if possilbe. Please let me know..thanks

[RJ_Daley]

OK supers, what are your comments on the mowing edges and contours and turning space at Royan Melbourne that we are being treated with seeing this week on TGC?  Do you know if the greens are maintained year around in the manner we see this week, with the razor sharp bunker edges cut 6-8" through the root zone, bitten right into the putting greens and no more than a foot collar cut in many places where the bunker edges bite in.  How is that done?  How do they keep those spaded edges from crumbling in those dry hot winds?  What kind of crew time does it take in relation to standard expectations we have here in the states.  If it were up to superintendent input during design/construction concerning this feature of bunker bitten into green with curled lips and rolled down edges into those pits, and virtually no collar, would we have ever had the masterpieces like MacKenzie and Russell gave us?  Can the inner sq footage of the green be tri-plexed on those greens with walk-behind clean-ups, or is it walk-behinds all year, not just for the tournament?

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I missed your mention about hole by hole posting. It does seem like a lot to do but basically just give me any handicap problem at all; ie; differences between stroke and match, hole rating for handicap purposes equitably, ESC, anything at all and it might be provable how hole by hole posting can solve it!

I'm not sure yet if it can solve the problems of "turning mowers" but I have high hopes!

[Don_Mahaffey]

RJ,
The mowing is no problem as long as you have enough resources to walk mow all the time. It would take good operators, but you can get good guys and keep them if you pay them well. Lots of hand watering to keep the edges healthy without soaking the entire green. I love the look and it certainly can be maintained well as long as the budget matches the expectations. In most cases it really does come down to money, I know that is a common supt. whine, but it is true. I would love to see bunkering designed like what we are seeing on TV this week. As long as you have a knowledgeable super and enough people to care for it and the money to pay them, it can be done.

Most experienced supers have gone through a time when the people they work for, either cut their budget and expected the same results or added expectations but no money. I see this all the time where clubs say they want to take their course to the next level. If they’re going to do that they need to take their budget to the next level. In the case of developing a course like Royal Melbourne, the super would need assurance that the developers understand the cost involved with bunkering like that, especially if the course is not built on sand. I think most supers would love to care for a course like Royal Melbourne as long as the budget matched the expectations

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