[Jim Franklin]

I did not find the "disconnect" of the walking to be an issue at DC. In fact, I had a wonderful day and a terrific 18 hole conversation with my caddie. DC would fall after Sand Hills, Friars Head, Bandon Trails for me and just ahead of Old Sandwich and Colorado GC.

As an aside, if you are going to start a thread saying you will get flamed, and then get flamed, don't be offended.

[David_Madison]

Matt:

I hardly consider myself flamed here. Pretty mild stuff yet unnecessary, and I'm fine that you disagreed about my believing that the roundabout detours detracted from the flow of the play within the holes. I never mentioned anything about it being a difficult walk, just a distracting one, although certainly pleasant enough. I was surprised and disappointed about how disjointed I thought Dormie was, especially after playing a number of other C&C courses which I thought hung together wonderfully. I wonder if the walk we took was substantially different from the one Bill Coore had intended when he routed the course.

Other than for this element, I thought the course was pretty good. I thought there was a big imbalance of holes turning to the left, with perhaps too many holes favoring a sling drawn tee shot. Definitely not my favorite C&C course, but even one that's just average for them is still very high on the food chain.

[Jim Franklin]

David -

I certainly understood you said it was disjointed and not difficult. Your last statement is very true although I do not think DC is mediocre by any stretch.

[Bill_McBride]

David -

I certainly understood you said it was disjointed and not difficult. Your last statement is very true although I do not think DC is mediocre by any stretch.

This is just another example of Matt making his point OVER AND OVER AND OVER until everybody agrees with it just to end the misery.  IMHO.

[David_Madison]

Jim,

Average for C&C is still pretty wonderful. They are my favorite architects, as their design sensibilities tie in so much with what I've always liked in a golf course. From my first experience with their work, at Cuscowilla, I've been hooked, and there hasn't been a time where I've been on one of their courses where I didn't want to go right from the 18th green back to the first tee. Dormie was the first time I didn't feel that way, and I was disappointed by that. Dormie is far from mediocre. It's really quite good, although because of some of the points I've raised not quite where I expected it nor as good as some of their other work that I've played.

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks David. I can't wait to see it when the greens are running good.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Revisionist history is always a nice magic show trick.

I responded to what was said and then I became the issue because I didn't walk in lockstep with the original premise.

David is fine to believe whatever it is he wishes to believe. I disagreed with it and see TDC as one of the better C&C courses I have played. Simple as that.

David:

While on the subject of course quality -- can you please post -- in order -- the best C&C courses you have personally played.

Thanks ...

[David_Madison]

Matt:

Sand Hills
Pinehurst #2 to the extent that they can be given credit for what is now there
Bandon Trails
Chechessee Creek
Cuscowilla
I've also played Colorado, Hidden Creek, Sugar Loaf, and of course Dormie

And your favorites?

[Matt_Ward]

David:

I would not list Pinehurst #2 as an original work of C&C -- Ross is likely turning over in his grave.

No doubt they deserve immense credit for bringing back to life the charm and grandeur of #2. I would place their work as a renovation and in line with what they have done elsewhere in such situations (see Prairie Dunes, Riviera, et al).

Among the ones I have played I would rate them in groups ...

Sand Hills (still the one to beat)

Clear Creek
Kapalua / Plantation


The Dormie Club
Bandon Trails
Cuscowila
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)


Austin GC
Barton Creek (Cliffside)
Hidden Creek
Warren GC at ND
Talking Stick
East Hampton

It's my hope to travel to Tasmania and play Lost Farms given all the positives about the course.

[William_G]

David -

I certainly understood you said it was disjointed and not difficult. Your last statement is very true although I do not think DC is mediocre by any stretch.

This is just another example of Matt making his point OVER AND OVER AND OVER until everybody agrees with it just to end the misery.  IMHO.

LOL

[archie_struthers]

 
Rory  I've never played Dormie so can't comment on disconnects...but it is an interesting concept as presented.  Sensory deprivation vis a vis the hole doesn't appeal to me.

[Michael Whitaker]

Matt - that is an impressive list of C&C courses. Of the ones I've played I would put them in the following order... not based on which I think is the  "better" course, but which I most enjoyed and the order I would want to play again:

Cuscowilla
Lost Farm (note: this is a C, not a C&C)
Bandon Trails
Chechessee Creek
Dormie Club
Sugarloaf Mountain

I'm hoping to see one or more of their NE courses while I'm based out of NYC this year. With the exception of Bandon Trails all the ones I've played are warm weather courses with a mostly Bermuda playing surface. It will be interesting to see some more with cool season grasses.

[Jim Franklin]

Sand Hills
Friars Head
Bandon Trails
Dormie Club
Old Sandwich
Colorado GC
Cuscowilla
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
Hidden Creek
Sugarloaf Mountain
Talking Stick

Not that anyone asked . I loved everyone with the exception of the last one.

[William_G]

David,
It sounds to me like your caddie missed a few of the shortcuts. The only holes that force a walk away from the direct line to the fairway are 5 - gotta get around the lake somehow - and 17. As you saw, the course is laced with wetlands but except for 17 there's either a fairly direct route over a bridge or a walking path. I think the only awkward part of the routing is the 6-7 transition. It allows for a good short loop (1-6, 14-18) but compared to the rest of the green-tee transitions it's an outlier.

+1

[J Cabarcos]

Dormie - Three Thumbs Up !

I just returned from the Pinehurst Area in North Carolina and have become another believer in Dormie.  I played the typical #2,4 & 8 trio at Pinehurst which were all nice, but they did not hold the attention of my three golf buddies like Dormie did.  What an awesome course.  Having had caddies sure did help.  There is a lot of knowledge needed here the first time around.  The fairways appear huge, yet placement is important to minimize distance left to green.  There are a lot of hilly terrain and fairway areas I call speed slots, and other areas that are damp and soft.  Greenside is where the real fun is.  The greens are not a penal as #2 (a good thing) yet again shot placement is paramount, otherwise a three put is around the corner.  Fairway and green hazards do their job.  They are strategic, instead of overdone (i.e. Dye).  If you find yourself in one, it will be likely that a bogie awaits because there are significant elevation changes from the green making it hard to get up and down.  Lastly, I am a fan of C & C overall routing of the course.  Tons of right to left holes mixed with left to right holes.  Few if any boring straight up holes.  Overall a phenomenal experience to play Dormie.  Like Arnold said, I'll be back.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's an article by Matt Ward just in case anyone is wondering about him:

http://fairwaysandgreens.com/articles/622-north-carolina-s-newest-golf-natural

[Mark Saltzman]

David Madison,

FWIW, Brad agrees with you regarding the routing (and for that matter so do I):

http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/article/The+Golf+Life/900546/0/article.html

1. Ease and intimacy of routing: 6

Not an easy site, what with 200 feet of elevation change and lots of wetlands crossings on tee shots, plus one very awkward crossover in the routing. Course is arrayed in a series of large loops, each of which is walkable, but the connections prevent a unified flow.


And Matt Ward isn't here to keep ignoring what you write!

[David_Madison]

Mark:

Thanks for the linked commentary from Brad and your thoughts as well. I knew of Brad's thoughts but wasn't going to mention them here, and am also aware of some others who most would agree know a thing or two who also are thinking along similar lines.

Dormie is a strange bird. Lots of very good holes, with interesting approaches and greens complexes. I really like the individual holes on the course, and would have a tough time criticizing much when looking strictly at the merits of each. I just wouldn't put those eighteen holes together on the same course. I think I may have written it earlier in the thread, but I think that here we have a case where the whole is less than the sum of its parts. It's unfortunate, as I think most would agree that great courses are just the opposite. Pinehurst #2, especially now, is such a case. Not a lot of holes that jump out at you as being incredibly noteworthy, but at the end of the round you know you've experienced something special. Dormie can never compare favorably to #2 for that reason. Play both courses and you may remember more individual holes on Dormie, but you walk away only from #2 knowing that at some deep level you played something uniquely great.

[William_G]

David Madison,

FWIW, Brad agrees with you regarding the routing (and for that matter so do I):

http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/article/The+Golf+Life/900546/0/article.html

1. Ease and intimacy of routing: 6

Not an easy site, what with 200 feet of elevation change and lots of wetlands crossings on tee shots, plus one very awkward crossover in the routing. Course is arrayed in a series of large loops, each of which is walkable, but the connections prevent a unified flow.


And Matt Ward isn't here to keep ignoring what you write!

LOL, just played Dormie a month ago and agree with David about the routing. Especially the strange cross over where you walk past a tee to another tee.

I rated it above a 7, similar to Brad.

Given that it was designed as a home site development, it kind of reminds me of a Fazio layout for cart golf.

Still loved the course and green sites... I'm a C&C fan

[Mark Saltzman]

Dormie is a strange bird. Lots of very good holes, with interesting approaches and greens complexes. I really like the individual holes on the course, and would have a tough time criticizing much when looking strictly at the merits of each. I just wouldn't put those eighteen holes together on the same course. I think I may have written it earlier in the thread, but I think that here we have a case where the whole is less than the sum of its parts. It's unfortunate, as I think most would agree that great courses are just the opposite. Pinehurst #2, especially now, is such a case. Not a lot of holes that jump out at you as being incredibly noteworthy, but at the end of the round you know you've experienced something special. Dormie can never compare favorably to #2 for that reason. Play both courses and you may remember more individual holes on Dormie, but you walk away only from #2 knowing that at some deep level you played something uniquely great.

David,

Interesting.  I think I like Dormie more (much more?) than you do, though I agree that it does not compare favorably to #2.  I felt that holes worked very well together and the golf course had a tremendous flow - beating you up, then letting you get back in the round. 

I much enjoyed playing Dormie much more than I enjoyed #2.  After playing Dormie I really wanted nothing other than to get back to the first tee -- the course is so much fun, and has lots of shot that you can't wait to hit again.  After my round at #2 I was tired.  Even without any rough or water, disaster lurks everywhere.  Every hole and every shot are great -- the golf course always keeps you thinking -- which is why it is so darned great.  But, as I said on my photo tour, I would play Dormie 7-3.

William, 6 for me too.  Crossover didn't really bother me, it was more than trudging through waste areas to get to the fairways on a few holes -- didn't like the disjointed feeling.  It's like you see the hole, hit your tee shot, and leave the golf course for a five minute walk.

Fortunately, we had the opportunity to walk through the waste areas.  Walking around them on the cart paths would have been much worse!

[Tim Nugent]

Perhaps people should reflect on the purpose and evolution of the path.  We all know that originally there was no such thing.  All golfers walked and cow path trails evolved (just look at an aerial view of Pine Valley).  However, not all courses were blessed with fast draining sand bases and these paths would turn wet/muddy.  in an effort to 1) keep members shoes clean and dry and 2) provide a solid base for maintenance eauipment, supers would put stone over the wet spots.  Over time, a preferred stone path for maintenance equipment evolved.  Enter the golf cart.  Like maintenance equipment, carts needed a solid base to travel upon and used the maintenance paths.  Over time, these service roads were sometimes considered too far from the golf hole and smaller, closer walking paths near greens and tees were beat up by the arts and had to be stoned over.  Of course the size of the cart 4-5' wide is about that of a majority of mowers and utility vehicles, so the maintenance crew began to use those too.  As carts began to out number walkers, the Service Road became the Cart Path as it was more cost effective to merely connect the tee and green paths (about 7,000 lf). The close ground clearance of some riding mowers and their dislike for jarring bumps led these paths to be paved for a smoother ride.  As these paved paths invaded the visual and playing realm, players and architects began to revolt against them and did everything they could to hide them from both view and play (the dreaded "cath path LOGO").
So, could it be that DC merely reverted back to only creating maintenance paths on agreeable terrain and left it to the walkers to beat their own "caddy paths"  ala Pine Valley?  If so, wouldn't this be in concert with the overall vision of the design?  Shouldn't C& C be commended for this.  Or has our society evolved to a point where someone needs to always dictate where people go and if left to themselves look for a path already created by someone else?

[Jim Franklin]

Where is Andy Troeger? He just played #2 and Dormie Club. Please share your thoughts with the treehouse.

[Sean Leary]

Jim,

I believe Andy did on another thread.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
I've been posting some on the other thread. I'd play Dormie 7-3 over #2 given 10 more rounds. Both are very good though.

I'm not convinced by this "walking around/disjointed" argument. I went back through my photos. By what I can see on the photos and what I remember, holes #1, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 18 allow the golfer to walk straight to the ball through scrubby areas. That's 11 of the 18 holes to start with where to me there's nothing to discuss. Of the remaining seven holes, #2, 7, 9, and 15 require that the golfer take a longer walking route around wetlands, but the golfer on these holes NEVER loses sight of the hole itself and never even gets to the treeline on the walk. That leaves only #5, 8, and 17 that could seem a bit disjointed as far as individual holes. #17 to me is a short walk through a few trees that still allows the golfer to see the hole; #5 is a walk around the pond/lake where visibility is lost, and #8 is a walk through the woods for a bit where I think visibility probably was lost for awhile. I think knocking the course significantly for that is a bit silly, personally. 

I do agree the walk from #6 green to #7 tee is a bit strange, but no worse than I've seen a number of other courses. Crystal Downs #11 to 12 is a bit awkward too, but nobody seems to mind as its a pleasant walk in the woods. I see this in a similar fashion. I do think the course has a few too many holes that turn left--certainly doesn't help with variety. #17 is one of the best par fives I've ever seen, and #10 is really good too.

[Mac Plumart]

I am more with Andy on this one.  I thought Dormie was really, really good and I thought the routing was great except for one spot. However, I think #2 is one of the truly great courses.  So I'm probably 7 to 3 in favor of #2 in terms of the ten play split.

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