[Bill_McBride]

 I had never put it into context the way David has, and can now recall many a course where this "detraction" is not only designed in, but also, can be the result of the habits of the frequent player at that course. i.e., one day at Apache Stronghold, since few walkers played there, a direct route thru the desert was too dangerous to walk since there were no beaten down paths and rattlesnakes everywhere.

Adam, I walked 36 at Apache Stronghold, walking directly to the fairways off the front of the tees on very cool little trails. If we had followed the cart paths it would have been a mile longer walk.

Are those paths now abandoned?  I was there probably in 2005.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Disjointed ?

Did you expect to walk 2-3 paces off of a green and expect the tee pad to be there ?

Throw off the pacing ? Geeze, I guess you have a certain delicate balancing act on such matters so I defer to your thinking on that dimension.

Frankly, and with all due respect, I think you are splitting the split in the hairs on this one.

You challenged me to provide a link to someone making reference to TDC as cartball -- so here goes ...

"From reading your analysis, I couldn't help but think it sounded more like a cartball course." (Adam Clayman)

David, I laugh at it because I think the walk at TDC is anything but disjointed -- the spacing that exists is quite e-z to navigate and like I said if people want to see "disjointed" then play Bethpage Black, to name just one example.

To each his own ...

[David_Madison]

I played this past Tuesday and the course was dry, except for some areas that look they had just been heavily watered. So that doesn't explain all the detours. Maybe our caddie just didn't like going thru the natural areas, but it sounds from some of the comments here like we missed a few. I've played plenty of courses with multiple carries over natural areas, but there were walking trails thru them. Those walks thru the natural areas were like a bonus, an enhancement of the walking experience. If those were indeed present at Dormie, then obviously my comments wouldn't apply.

Matt, don't be silly or I'll have to start laughing at you. And you keep coming up with straw man arguments. I never said a word about the walks from green to tee. Those were fine. I've seen shorter (Chechessee Creek, for example, another C&C course) but the green to tee walks at Dormie were not objectionable.

[Matt_Ward]

David,

Laugh all you wish but here's what you said when you intro-ed this thread ... "Heresy warning! I'm going to get flamed here, but here goes..."

Yes, you have been "flamed" by me because the walks you are talking about were not excessive - the idea of being disjointed is really pushing the envelope. Walk Bethpage Black if you want to see something that is along the lines you described -- even in that case the walk is fine for those with a good pair of legs and a desire to enjoy the terrain for what it provides.

[David_Madison]

Matt,

Amazing. That you are telling me that my opinion that the continual detours were a distraction to me is wrong is special. I've walked Bethpage carrying my clubs, and yes, that took some effort. But here I'm not concerned about the walks being excessive from a difficulty perspective. We played in 3:45, so it wasn't a time thing either. Playing a 400+ yard hole and having no contact with the hole (other than a horizontal view during the detour) from the tee until getting halfway to the green makes a course disjointed for me if it happens over and over again. Maybe it didn't have to happen because there were trails thru the natural areas that we didn't take but that you did. I know that I'm not alone in my thinking as my playing companion (who is an excellent golfer and recently played in a US Senior Open) experienced the same thing and actually helped me formulate my thoughts about this.

It's fine with me if you had a different experience playing Dormie. But I'm not telling you that your opinion of your experience is wrong.

[Keith OHalloran]

Matt,
Are you differentiating between "tough walk" and "disjointed"? I ask because i have played Bethpage Black, and while the walk to 2 and 15 cross roads, I didn't feel "disjointed" as if I had to circumvent the world to get to the fairways, but I surely felt tired, as it was a hard walk.

[Brett_Morrissy]

David,
Over time golfers seem to find the shortest route, particularly those on foot.
Is it just a case of not enough time for the narrow 'goat' like tracks between tee and fairway?

E.g. I noticed at Sand Hills that there was always a thin little track for those carrying their own bags, but they were not always obvious, and were often quite different to the paths. The same applied off the back of most greens to tees as well, although knowing where each tee was, was more difficult for a first timer.

So, David, do you think that is the reason the lack of tracks?
I agree with you, that continued separation from the routing of the each hole, from tee to fairway or from fairway to green, is undesirable and does in no way enhance the experience. This to me is at the heart of the main issue of riding in a cart.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

You start a thread KNOWING full well you will be "flamed" (your own words) -- then you take umbrage when people don't see it your way. Nice.

I've played TDC and I don't see where you can say what you say. The walks you mentioned do not take away from playing the course and frankly I think a number of them add to the dimensions of the experience. David, forgive me if my stance runs counter to the thoughts you have formulated -- but when you expect to be "flamed" -- try to realize it was you who expected as much.

Keith:

If one plays the Black and you access several of the back tees -- the walk back to them can be "disjointed" for those who want greens, tees and all the rest to be nicely lumped together. Let's keep in mind -- the walk from the 1st green to #2 tee is quite long and the one from #14 to #15 tee is also long -- ditto the walk up the hill to #15 -- heck even walking towards the back tee at #18 is no e-z thing -- ditto the walk off #18 back to the clubhouse.

Brett:

Have you played TDC ? Because walking is not a problem when playing there and it doesn't take away from the enjoyment in playing there -- or requiring the usage of a cart.

[Keith OHalloran]

Fair enough Matt, I have never been man enough to play the back tees, and my experience did not take that into account.

[Matt_Ward]

Keith:

I agree w your take -- if someone played the white or far forward areas -- the perspective would be different.

In sum -- we are both correct. Still, the Black is a physical place to walk given the immense scale of the property.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Matt,
No I havent played Dormie club. Hope to when I get back to US for another trip .

[David_Madison]

Brett:

I appreciate your understanding of my main point here. I don't know why there weren't paths through the natural areas. Some of it could have been because they were low-lying wetlands and there never could be paths. Maybe there were more direct routes but our caddie avoided them because they weren't wide enough to comfortably double bag it through them.  I'm not familiar enough with the creation of such paths and how they might be formed there if at all possible, if the builder of the course needs to help the process along and maybe put in some foot bridges here and there, or if over time they can just be created there by walkers cutting their own paths through. There's been enough discussion here about budget issues, C&C leaving the job before they were 100% finished, and so on to perhaps suspect this was may have been of those finishing items that just never got done.


Matt:

My comments about getting flamed were half tongue-in-cheek. I'm not that sensitive. I knew it would be a challenge on this site to raise an issue that I saw as a negative on a C&C course without having at least one person like you move it from a discussion on the merits of the course and what was there to a more personal commentary on my sensitivities and/or lack of fitness. I'm done with this silly back and forth with you, but welcome any further discussion on the merits of the course itself.

[Andrew Lewis]

Maybe there were more direct routes but our caddie avoided them because they weren't wide enough to comfortably double bag it through them.  I'm not familiar enough with the creation of such paths and how they might be formed there if at all possible, if the builder of the course needs to help the process along and maybe put in some foot bridges here and there, or if over time they can just be created there by walkers cutting their own paths through.

David -

My DC experience was in line with some of the other posters -- i.e., our caddie led us on fairly direct routes from tee to fairway, even through the junk.  Sometimes they were clearly marked and established (the stepping stones on hole 15) and sometimes they were not (like on hole 2).  In the latter case, our caddie suggested that the caddies were working to make preferred paths more noticeable.  So I don't think it ultimately is a case of the option a more connected route not existing, except on hole 5 as mentioned before.

But I'm now wondering whether that option will always be viable, due to a comment our caddie made related to:  SNAKES!

I played the course in March and the wetland-type area was fairly tame.  But according to our caddie, it comes to life a bit more during the warmer months, and some of the paths we took may not be advisable.  Admittedly, I'm no expert on wetland wildlife and took his comment at face value.  But given a tradeoff between fully connected with the course and a visit to the ER...

Cheers, Andrew

[Matt_Ward]

David:

I have no issue with people saying anything about a course -- I am not a C&C groupie as others are here but I really enjoyed TDC -- I think if there's any downside to the course it's the first couple of holes. I believe once you hit the 4th tee the game is on (although I know others will say the short par-4 3rd is a gem too and I don't disagree all that much on that front.

Now, let me address YOUR focus ...

I can understand your point and not fully share it. No doubt having direct "links" to the course -- instead of round about ways can take one's mind off the golf journey that people (yourself included) see as being paramount as much as the holes / shots played.

David, just realize this -- this is a commentary site -- I addressed your comments and you to me. Grow a thicker skin and the rest takes care of itself.

[William_G]

David:

I have no issue with people saying anything about a course -- I am not a C&C groupie as others are here but I really enjoyed TDC -- I think if there's any downside to the course it's the first couple of holes. I believe once you hit the 4th tee the game is on (although I know others will say the short par-4 3rd is a gem too and I don't disagree all that much on that front.

Now, let me address YOUR focus ...

I can understand your point and not fully share it. No doubt having direct "links" to the course -- instead of round about ways can take one's mind off the golf journey that people (yourself included) see as being paramount as much as the holes / shots played.

David, just realize this -- this is a commentary site -- I addressed your comments and you to me. Grow a thicker skin and the rest takes care of itself.

Matt, Why are you always trying to teach people a lesson on this site??  thanks

[Sean Leary]

David:

I have no issue with people saying anything about a course -- I am not a C&C groupie as others are here but I really enjoyed TDC -- I think if there's any downside to the course it's the first couple of holes. I believe once you hit the 4th tee the game is on (although I know others will say the short par-4 3rd is a gem too and I don't disagree all that much on that front.

Now, let me address YOUR focus ...

I can understand your point and not fully share it. No doubt having direct "links" to the course -- instead of round about ways can take one's mind off the golf journey that people (yourself included) see as being paramount as much as the holes / shots played.

David, just realize this -- this is a commentary site -- I addressed your comments and you to me. Grow a thicker skin and the rest takes care of itself.

Matt,

To be honest, when I first read your first response, my first thought was "Did Matt even read his entire post". It just seemed like you read part of it and jumped into Wardspeak, so to speak. Just another perspective from someone who hasn't been there.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

I read his post and how David was concerned that the walk to the holes were disjointed and often round about thereby lowering in his mind the nature of what makes being there so special.

I answered him from what I saw in being there.

William:

Try to remember this -- David started the thread -- I answered him from my perspective in having played the course. Then he gets bent out of joint because people don't walk in lockstep with him -- even after realizing that possibly people would get "flamed" from what he said. I have no issue with his opinion -- just that when people do respond then the rabbit ears types throw a pissy fit and label the comments being "silly back and forth."  Nothing more -- nothing less.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt,

Please read what I wrote. My comments have nothing to do with the difficulty of the walk. Sure it's a bit tougher than some other places, but nothing extreme or unreasonable. My issue is what I have described as the disjointed nature of the holes because of one's inability to go directly from tee to fairway to green on way too many holes, and that throws off the pacing and continuity as one plays and goes from shot to shot. The terrain is plenty pretty, although living here in North Carolina it's nothing all that unusual for the region.

Show me where I or anyone else here said it was a cartball course. What I did say was that if you played using a cart, my issue with the routing would likely be rendered moot. I have simply expressed my opinion on a matter and provided some reasonable support, and then simply asked if anyone else experienced the same thing while playing. To laugh at my opinion of my experience, or to mischaracterize what I am saying here doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Clearly biting wit with undertones of intimidation, both visually and daunting.

Can you spell PROJECTING ?

[William_G]

Sean:

I read his post and how David was concerned that the walk to the holes were disjointed and often round about thereby lowering in his mind the nature of what makes being there so special.

I answered him from what I saw in being there.

William:

Try to remember this -- David started the thread -- I answered him from my perspective in having played the course. Then he gets bent out of joint because people don't walk in lockstep with him -- even after realizing that possibly people would get "flamed" from what he said. I have no issue with his opinion -- just that when people do respond then the rabbit ears types throw a pissy fit and label the comments being "silly back and forth."  Nothing more -- nothing less.

Matt,

I can read and I don't think you answered my question, just asking as you are the God, thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

William:

Not interested in teaching any "lessons" -- just trying to point out that when people begin threads they want others to walk in lockstep with their thoughts. Some time that happens -- some times it doesn't.

I answered your question -- not to your satisfaction likely but I did try to provide a bit more take since clearly you feel like David was wronged in my response.

[William_G]

Matt,

Ok, just seems that's your deal.

I'm not taking sides, just thought it was a good thread, and was wondering about you.

thanks

[David_Madison]

Absolutely amazing Matt. A "pissy fit"?

My "preamble" to this thread was simple an acknowledgement that it would be a challenge here to conduct a conversation over what I believed to be a negative with a C&C course while keeping the conversation strictly to the merits of the architecture and our experience of it. Disagree with my position all you want. But at least read my entire post and then speak on the merits of the information and point of view I present. You did to the extent that you disagreed with my perspective. And then you went on to comment on my desire to avoid the ardor of the walk, when in fact that was never anything I brought up in the first place. And then you continued on to the point that others here have suggested that you cool it. Does being like this work out well for you? You seem like a smart guy who knows a lot about this stuff. Wish you could keep it to that.

In the meantime I've learned here that there are indeed some walking trails through the natural areas. I hope that next time I get to use them and by so doing experience the course differently. But at the same time, if during the warmer months when the natural areas might be wetter and the snakes more active there is the need to take more detours, then I'll be curious to learn if others then experience the course as I did and felt the same way about how the flow of the holes may have been diminished.

[archie_struthers]

  :DK

interesting , very interesting

As much as I enjoyed Pine Hill....now Trump Philly when I first played it....the cart paths took you away from the hole a lot and I got the same disconnect as mentioned here.   You don't get the feel for the ground And the elevation changes....a couple walkabouts are fun , a plethora decidedly not so good!

[Rory Connaughton]

David

  Interesting comments. I did not experience the course in the same way. I think a good comparison for some of the walks at DC are the walk from 5 tee to green, from 5 green to 6 tee and 11 green to 12 tee at PV.  It did not create a negative impression for my group.

Archie, you should see for yourself of course but I think you would find a big difference between TNP and DC in regard to the question of the connectivity of the routing.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Let's try this again -- YOU started this thread with the acknowledgement that it would be 'FLAMED."

You do remember that -- right ?

I then answered you in good faith you reacted with a thin-skin retort -- about my tone being "silly back and forth" type stuff. Hello -- anybody home? You do remember that? People can have different opinions and since this is a discussion board it's OK -- and even encouraged for people to provide their individual takes. If you feel the way you do -- so be it -- for you. I provided my experiences and cited a few examples of where other walks are more disjointed and demanding.

After I posted my take -- and challenged yours in a nice way -- you come back and label me with the "silly" moniker.

I am sorry my take on things doesn't walk in 100% lockstep with yours. Please tell me what you wish for me to write so that it conforms with your position. Happy to provide that if anything other than is not acceptable.

David, I imagine you liked TDC -- I have issues with different C&C courses and have said so on those occasions. We see things differently on your dimension of the walking and its disconnect Simple as that ...

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