[Patrick_Mucci]

golf course architecture, what five (5) courses in the U.S. would you want him to see in order to accelerate his learning curve ?

And why ?

I'd have to go with PV as one of my five.
Wide fairways, penal, putting surfaces and green surrounds, individual hole design, par 70.

NGLa would be amongst the five.
Again, Wide Fairways, unique topography, interesting putting surfaces and surrounds, alternate routes tee to green, the out and back routing, rolloffs/feeding greens, abundance of short holes, diversity of holes.  Par 73


As to the other three, I have to think about that.

[David Harshbarger]

golf course architecture, what five (5) courses in the U.S. would you want him to see in order to accelerate his learning curve ?

And why ?

I'd have to go with PV as one of my five.
Wide fairways, penal, putting surfaces and green surrounds, individual hole design.

As to the other four, I have to think about that.

Patrick, I absolutely agree.  Can you get me on?

[Michael Whitaker]

Where can I sign up for this introductory course?

[Michael Whitaker]

One of my five would be Huntercombe in Oxfordshire: http://www.huntercombegolfclub.co.uk/

More than any other course I have seen Huntercombe demonstrates how an interesting and entertaining course can be created on land that, by itself, is not outstanding. Anyone considering course architecture as a profession should be required to spend a week at Huntercombe before creating their first hole for money.

[Sam Morrow]

Would you need to play a very poorly designed course to show bad examples?

[Scott Warren]

Royal Melbourne (West)
Royal Cinque Ports
Riviera
Pine Valley
Fishers Island

1. A range of factors that make them interesting and challenging.
2. A variety of settings, but all use their natural features really well.
3. A wide variety of styles of land.
4. A wide variety of green designs.
5. Heaps of different uses of bunkering.

[RJ_Daley]

I think Sam Morrow is onto this exercise.  I think that first thing would be to recommend some of the usual suspect of books on GCA, then send the newbie to both some poorly worked out design examples along with some good ones.  I don't think one must necessarily go to one of the pantheon of great courses... although it would be nice. 

But, after reading some GCA theory and ideas from some of the best writers and observers of the field, then seeing various examples of these ideas on the ground, is the best introduction, IMO.  I would say that ideally, one would want to send that newbie to a highly designed and intensely constructed good golf course, like one of the McDonald-Raynor genre, and something by MacKenzie, then a few of the best modern practitioners of the field.  But some ill thought out design examples would be essential to the instruction as well.

[PCCraig]

The Country Club of Brookline
NGLA
PV
Augusta National
Crooked Stick
Sand Hills

Ok, I thought 5 was too hard so I picked 6. My reason? I think the above 6 would be a great journey through the history of quality golf course architecture in the United States.

*The first Country Club, TCC of Brookline's first routing wasn't designed by anyone, it just came to be from members walking around the grounds whacking balls, and the rough/quirky/uniqueness of the course remains there today.

*I haven't been there, but NGLA would obviously be as good of a place to expose the person to the CBM/Raynor school of design with Chicago Golf being a close 2nd. This would give the player a glance into the implementation of manufactured templates to the existing land.

*PV would be a great way to show how the next generation of GCA's took the template principles and blended them into the rough sandy landscape of New Jersey.

*I would then pick ANGC as it would show the further evolution of the American golf course, which began as a natural MacKenzie/Jones design and evolved into a modern professional tournament site, while still retaining the fundamentals of what made it great in the first place.

*Then I picked Crooked Stick, because I thought it would be needed to show the golfer an example of a big, modern, hard tournament venue which isn't located on an ideal piece of land. What better designer represents the above like Pete Dye? Again, I picked CS not because its his best design, but how a modern GCA used classic principals to build a modern tournament venue.

*To top off my list, I would pick Sand Hills to show how things have come full circle.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I might just send this person to Columbus, Ohio for 1 week of golf at:

Scioto                     Ross
Ohio State               MacKenzie
Muirfield Village       Nicklaus
The Golf Club           Dye
Double Eagle            Weiskopf


What if this was more realistic, and you wanted to introduce someone with a budding interest in golf course architecture by using local golf courses.

Around Springfield, MA I would recommend the following:
Taconic
The Orchards
Crumpin Fox
Wintonbury Hills
TPC River Highlands

Back in St. Louis I would recommend:
Normandie
St. Louis C.C.
Westwood
Bellerive
Annbriar

I would be interesting to hear other local lists of 5 possible courses for an introduction to golf course architecture.  It might make for intersting lists for one moving or visiting to those areas.

[Mark Manuel]

With all due respect, Ohio State Scarlet is no longer a MacKenzie.  You should write Nicklaus next to that one as well.

I don't want this thread to go off track, but after the work done by Nicklaus that is not even close to MacKenzie's work.

[Garland Bayley]

You guys are wacked! No beginner is going to get a thing from your introduction.

1. A flat featureless course. It has been a long time, but my recollection of Merriweather National would suit that bill.
2. A narrow tunnel between the trees. Fairly abundant here in the Pacific Northwest.
3. A pond filled swamp land. RTJ II Blue Heron at Heron Lakes ought to fit that bill.
4. Bandon Trails
5. Old MacDonald

At which point I would expect them to move to Bandon and enjoy their waining years.

I though of working Sandpines in there too, but I figured I had already demonstrated bad thoroughly enough.

[Richard Choi]

If we are going to introduce that said golfer, it is likely that he does not have much connections to get on Pine Valley or ANGC...

In that case, I would recommend following public courses:

1. Old Macdonald - learn about history of golf and where the inspirations for these holes came from
2. Bethpage Black - learn about what kind of courses were being built during the "golden age" of golf architecture
3. Pinehurst #2 - ditto
4. Pacific Dunes - learn how that has morphed into modern design sensibilities
5. Sawgrass - learn how that modern design sensibility looks like in over-drive

[Kris Shreiner]

 My 5...eerrrr 6, in no particular order, are different as there are different reasons for each pick!

Merion - Awesome example of how to shoehorn challenging variety into a stellar routing on a compact parcel.
PV- Serene, natural Tournament caliber test with ample driving width, yet extreme precision required throughout the experience.
Pac Dunes- modern, minimalist masterpiece that demonstrates quality golf architecture is alive and well in some circles.
Sand Hills- redefined potential for unexpected greatness in atypical, non-tradtitional environments.

Critics Choice- Co-#5
Rustic Canyon- displays superb quality from arid, difficult ground in affordable, sustainable presentation.

Cobbs- Magnificant use of natural topography in crafting a testing, intriguing course that in it's original routing, will rival any municipal layout in America.

[Simon Holt]

My play in the US is limited so I will name 4 of around 30 courses I have played.  I am blessed to have been able to play these courses- they opened my eyes!

Maidstone- some great green sites and contouring.  Interesting use of the natural water features to make short 4s and 5s very strategic.

NGLA- some of the best design influences from the UK transported to the US allowing one to experience some old school links GCA in America.  Great routing, awesome greens, fast, firm and exhilarating blind shots.

PV- everything about it!  Wide landing areas off the tee but huge value on position to allow for the best angle of attack to the green.  Awesome green complexes, incredible bunkering and the separate green options on 8 and 9 are thought provoking without being a gimmick.

Cypress Point- The best example of seamless transitions between the 3 differing landscapes on the property.  As with all of the above; a quite stunning set of greens.

Simon

[Chris Cupit]

The Old Course at St. Andrews
NGLA
Any Joe Lee course
Any Fazio course
Pine Valley



1.  TOC for the obvious reason that it is the starting point for all golf architecture.  I would point out how TOC really set the standard for what golf was and ask him or her to keep in mind that everything played was either embracing or rejecting many of the holes and concepts at TOC.

2.  NGLA as it is a timeless masterpeice and a great example of how TOC directly influenced golf design at the beginning of the 20th century.

3.  Joe Lee designed a ton of "typical" golf courses.  In the book about "Gentleman Joe Lee" Jack Nicklaus offers that "Joe Lee has never built a bad golf course......of course he never built a great one either."  Not the nicest thing to say but maybe true.  JL designed what was a pretty standard, basic golf experience for a large segment of private club golfers from 1960-1985.  I think he is underappreciated but his work would be an example of the "dark ages" that I would try and describe.

4.  Actually any high end, over maintained real estate development golf course would do.  Early, CCFAD, White Columns in Alpharetta.  The epitome of dumbed down design in a beautiful setting.  I would try and explain how golf transitioned from a strategic game to a "visual experience" meant more to sell real estate than challenge anyone interested in sport.  I am not blaming Fazio per se, just using him as an example of the excess and unreasonable expectations that have fundamentally changed the way golfers perceive courses and what has become important to most "golfers"--pretty ponds with fountains, flowers and edged bunkers and neat, crisp pine straw beds.

5.   Pine Valley--to show what a great inland golf course, inspired by TOC and others can be.  Every hole is just about perfect and the routing and walk in the park experience is as good as it gets.

[Philippe Binette]

I think I had, with the Renaissance Golf Internship in 2003, the best answer to this.
A 3 day trip from Philly to Long Island

1) Forsgate (Banks course) : Severity
2) Garden City: Simplicity
3) Friar's Head: Naturalism
4) Shinnecock Hills: Challenge
5) National Golf Links: Strategy

All this with Tom Doak and Kyle Franz... hard to beat, thanks again to Renaissance Golf Design, felt like Christmas

[Mac Plumart]

I don't know about 5, but I heard two suggestions from a certifiable guru that really caught my attention.

Pine Valley...because it demonstrates how it should be done.

Rich Harvest...because it shows how it shouldn't be done.

[Terry Lavin]

I'll stick with Chicago:

1. Chicago Golf Club

2. Flossmoor

3. Olympia Fields North

4. Old Elm

5. Butler National

You get a sampling of old and new, dead flat vs. big elevation changes, simple vs. diabolical.  Raynor, Tweedie, Park, Jr., Colt/Ross and Fazio.
 

[Eric_Terhorst]

1.  Holston Hills - a terrific introduction to Donald Ross, and I know a member 

All others easily accessible
2. Pasatiempo -- a non-golf-architecture-nerd observer I played it with once said "This looks just like Augusta!"
3. Lawsonia -- an engineering masterpiece by Langford
4.  Whistling Straits-- Intro to Pete Dye.  I'd nominate TPC Sawgrass if I'd played it.
5.  Bandon -- Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails required one-day curriculum in golf architecture as art

[Keith OHalloran]

If we stay in geographic regions, mine would be Long Island and nearby.
1. Shinnecock.  Example of great, tough, fair and perfectly maintained golf
2. NGLA, I would have them read The Evangelist first, so they would understand what each hole was asking of them.
3. Bethpage Black, it must be seen
4. Friar's Head. The course will speak for itself
5. Winged Foot. education in green complexes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

In addition to Pine Valley and NGLA, I think I'd include Shadow Creek as one of the five.

Shadow Creek is a good example of taking a hostile site and totally, artificially, creating a very good golf course.

The remaining two courses of the five course group may be more difficult to narrow down as I think the introduction of questionable to poor golf courses have their value in terms of providing "Exhibits A, B, C, etc....

So, I'm going to redefine the exercise and ask for five courses that represent outstanding achievements and five courses that represent either mediocre to poor architecture and/or opportunities lost.

In the second category, I'd have to include Spanish Bay.

If Tommy Nacarrato was posting I'm sure he'd list Sandpines in Florence, OR., but, he and I disagreed on many issues, holes and features regarding that course

[jonathan_becker]

Patrick,

I haven't played enough of the greats to necessarily pick 5, but I did recently get a chance to play one of your favorites in Seminole.

Using your criteria for NGLA....

Wide Fairways (yes), unique topography (yes, and especially for FLA), interesting putting surfaces and surrounds (yes), alternate routes tee to green (yes, off the top of my head going down 14 fw off of 12 tee), the out and back routing (no, but an outstanding routing showcasing the wind) , rolloffs/feeding greens (yes), abundance of short holes (yes), diversity of holes (yes). Par 72.

Plus, the bermuda grass shows another aspect of learning to play on different surfaces.

[Sean_A]

I will stick with five courses I have played rather than five US courses.

1. TOC: Funk works.  Shows off the terrain as incredibly important and that elevation change isn't the main desire, but humpty bumpty is.  One could easily cite North Berwick and Deal as well.

2. Huntercombe: Shows off why good design works despite the terrain.  Also demonstrates why a variety of hazards can outstrip the importance of bunkers even when the land is less than inspiring.  

3. Muirfield: Shows off great bunkering which totally transforms an otherwise okay sandy site into a championship course.  Also demonstrates the importance of using the wind to heighten the challenge and create variety.  

4. Woking: Shows off the value of a tightly run routing wiith the house as the centre.  Also demonstrates how interestingly contoured greens can work very well when the speeds are controlled.  

5. Kington: Shows why shaping isn't everything.  There are more ways to deal with a difficult site than the proverbial mega shape job.  Spend the effort where needed and allow the terrain and wind to care of the rest.  Finally, Kington really highlights the value of a short course in terms of tempering the challenge of the weather and terrain and keeping the walk managable.    

Tomorrow I could likley pick five other courses.

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

None in the US (as I have no info), but in Scotland I would suggest the following

TOC on a good sunny day
TOC on a wet and windy day
Muirfield
Carnoustie
North Berwick on a sunny blustery day

For the experience and pleasure my next five would be
Moray Old
Dunbar
Cruden Bay
Crail - Balcomie
Royal Dornoch

Should get a good idea about the depth of GCA, noting that weather does play a serious part in the design process.

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

Fantastic point on playing in different weather conditions, Melvyn.

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