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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't think there is any question that he does.

Rees is all about doctrine of framing, doctrine of symmetry and spoon-feeding the golfer the shot that he requires.

Davis gives you options.

Rees thinks a par-5 must be three shots - he told me so himself in an interview.  Dav is understands that great risk-reward par-5s that dole out 3 or 7 or anything in between a more compelling...


Thoughts?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I know Mike Davis is an architecture buff but he is a set up guy and not an archie. I think your premise is flawed and routing and design vs set up is apples to oranges. An understanding of great architecture has to be also and foremost applied to member tees and member play.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps Mike himself can answer that.

"Some architects are really focused on aesthics, making sure players don't lose balls, making a hole look more natural. Ree's focus is more on strategy, and he's got a very good sense of how the worlds best players play the game"

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/pdf/is-the-doctor-done.pdf

Mike Sweeney

Jay,

Get back to us when Mike Davis designs a driving range.  ???

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Weird Al a better composer than Elton John?  Mike Davis designs architectural parodies.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay:

I think you should try to make a habit of actually playing a golf course before bashing it or its designer.



P.S. - Are you going to use the responses on this thread for one of your articles as well?
H.P.S.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps Mike himself can answer that.

"Some architects are really focused on aesthics, making sure players don't lose balls, making a hole look more natural. Ree's focus is more on strategy, and he's got a very good sense of how the worlds best players play the game"

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/pdf/is-the-doctor-done.pdf

Kalen, I don't think Mike really meant what he said there...I think that was one of those polite comments everyone expects, but it is precisely because of misconceptions like that that get spread around that we as a body exist - to examine such statements and assess our thoughts on them.

Pat - if I see a particularly insightful comment, I'll approach that person and ask if they want to be quoted in an article.  Who knows if this question will become an article or not?  I have a preview to write, an analysis of the golf course, an article about what the players are thinking about the course, and then four days of coverage.  I can't predict what sidebars or other features will pop up.  Heck, just walking in the tent, I usually average getting 3 more articles assigned to me that I didn't anticipate, so the answer is maybe, who knows, we'll have to see.

As for your comment about about bashing a course or designer before I've played the course - with great respect, my own counsel will I keep about what I write.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay,

All we have is words and the definitions that we use to give the words meaning.  If he didn't mean what he said, then he should have said something different or politely declined to comment on the matter.

In the meantime, unless he clarifies what he said in that article, then that's all we have to go on....anything different is just speculation and is the actual cause of those "misconceptions" that you disdain.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
As for your comment about about bashing a course or designer before I've played the course - with great respect, my own counsel will I keep about what I write.

Quite frankly your opinion is worthless unless you have actual experience with a golf course. In Bellerive's case, you've never been there, yet you state that it's a "little sister" course. How the hell would you know that?

You have a clear bias against Rees Jones (this thread is exhibit A) and no credibility has a golf course architecture blogger/journalist/whatever because of it.
H.P.S.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kalen, with great respect I don't agree.

Example:  expecting that it was what was required of him, Phil Mickelson had an early interview with the press at Bethpage where he gave the typical and expected, "this will be hardest U.S. Open ever" quote.

As the winning score depicted, it was nothing of the sort.  One seminal sports writer from Pittsburgh actually asked Rees, "is this the easiest U.S. Open in many years?"  and all Rees could do in response was hem and haw.  I know, I was there, I saw.  People do it all the time at pressers.  It's my job to interpret to both a) report what I saw and 2) interpret for the reader whether I think they are right or not, but leave it to them to decide after they read.

And as for you, Pat, obviously you're predisposed because I raise the right questions about the shortcoming of a course or archie you like, so you lash out in ad hominem attacks, which you can stuff in your bottom.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 03:18:50 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
As for your comment about about bashing a course or designer before I've played the course - with great respect, my own counsel will I keep about what I write.

Quite frankly your opinion is worthless unless you have actual experience with a golf course. In Bellerive's case, you've never been there, yet you state that it's a "little sister" course. How the hell would you know that?

You have a clear bias against Rees Jones (this thread is exhibit A) and no credibility has a golf course architecture blogger/journalist/whatever because of it.

Here's Exhibit B....one of the most preposterous things I have ever read from a supposed journalist.  These types of comments are perfectly fine for a blogger...not a journalist.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40357.30/wap2.html

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kalen, with great respect I don't agree.

Example:  expecting that it was what was required of him, Phil Mickelson had an early interview with the press at Bethpage where he gave the typical and expected, "this will be hardest U.S. Open ever" quote.

As the winning score depicted, it was nothing of the sort.  One seminal sports writer from Pittsburgh actually asked Rees, "is this the easiest U.S. Open in many years?"  and all Rees could do in response was hem and haw.  I know, I was there, I saw.  People do it all the time at pressers.  It's my job to interpret to both a) report what I saw and 2) interpret for the reader whether I think they are right or not, but leave it to them to decide after they read.

And as for you, Pat, obviously you're predisposed because I raise the right questions about the shortcoming of a course or archie you like, so you lash out in ad hominem attacks, which you can stuff in your bottom.

You wouldn't know the "right questions about the shortcoming of a course or archie you like" because you've never been to the golf course you're talking about. You're like the National Enquirer of golf bloggers.
H.P.S.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thank you, Pat!  As it is well known in journalism circles that they actually do some of the best investigative journalism on the planet - and I think Tiger and J. Edwards would agree - you actually gave me a great compliment.

And Ryan, contrary to your uninformed implications, I've played Medicinal - sorry, Medinah - twice and after further review, the play stands as called:  the course is a terrible example of everything wrong with the penal architecture school that peaked in the 70s and 80s and is Exhibit A for why we need GCA.com...to explain why so that people come to learn more about great architecture.

But if you want to come on here and tell everyone how great it is, go ahead.  See if we all rush out to play Medinah.

Here's Ron Whitten panning it...

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/worstholes

and when I fond the Golf Magazine article that called it perhaps the most overrated golf course in America, I'll post that.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 03:58:39 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Peter Pallotta

Is Weird Al a better composer than Elton John?  Mike Davis designs architectural parodies.

J - for guys our age that should have read: Is Weird Al a better composer than Bernie Taupin (lyrics for: Rocket Man, Levon, Crocodile Rock, Honky Cat, Candle in the Wind, Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, Bennie and the Jets, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me, Daniel, and I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues.)   

P

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Weird Al a better composer than Elton John?  Mike Davis designs architectural parodies.

J - for guys our age that should have read: Is Weird Al a better composer than Bernie Taupin (lyrics for: Rocket Man, Levon, Crocodile Rock, Honky Cat, Candle in the Wind, Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, Bennie and the Jets, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me, Daniel, and I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues.)   

P

Nicely done Peter, that wins the final jeopardy answer in music.

Do you have an opinion on the Mike Davis/Rees issue?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
When Jay?  In your own words you only played it in 1988.

And penal architecture?  The architecture hasn't changed much since 1935....4 holes have.

Want me to pull up the 1935 maps?  Guess what, more trees and more bunkers in 1935.  How about the 70s and 80s maps?  Guess what?  More trees and more bunkers....just a different 17th and 18th hole.

I've never written on here how great Medinah's architecture is - I've only written on here asking for details as to how the architecture was made worse than what was already there.  That's it.  I challenge you to find something stating otherwise.  But, like your writing, it's just easier to throw things out there than to actually gain a true knowledge of what you write.

And thanks for the links....see, I can google myself and find those things.  

I suggest if you want to fight this fight you deal with facts that you actually know - not ones that you've stolen from others on this site.  Or maybe you're just writing this because some of your writing buddies think it is funny as that seems to be a standard for your topics of choice.

EDIT - Just clicked on your link - hilarious that such an esteemed "journalist" would cite to an article titled "Worst of the Best" that discusses one hole and represents that said article contains a Ron Whitten pan of the golf course.  BTW - the 9th hole hasn't really been altered since 1935...but I'm sure you knew that.   "And see if we all rush out to play it" - another great one as I don't recall inviting you.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 04:24:58 PM by Ryan Potts »

Peter Pallotta

Not an informed one, Jay.  But I think the situation is analogous to a fiction writer and his/her editor. Can an editor make the first draft of a novel better and more accessible? Absolutely.  Can an editor, having worked hard on making a novel a critical and commercial success, indulge the feeling that in truth it was his/her efforts that 'made the book' and 'secured the writer's success"?  Yes, and sometimes they might even be justified in feeling that way. Can a very good editor understand the nature of the craft and the qualities of good story-telling in a very deep way?  Sure, some of them can -- but they really can't know it in the most important sense and 'from the inside out' unless they themselves have sat in from of a blank page with nothing but a few ideas/characters in their heads and started typing those first few tentative words. IMO, there is a big, big difference between revising someone else's work and creating that work from scratch, even if the work is flawed or imperfect.  In other words, there are writers and there are editors, and they have each chosen those fields and have proven themselves in those roles, and as long as the writer keeps writing and the editor keeps editing their respective roles remain the same. MD is a set-up man, an an excellent one; but Jones is the golf course architect. (Yes, he has 'revised' other people's work quite often; but he has also created his own from scratch).

Peter
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 04:14:13 PM by PPallotta »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Helluva post, Peter.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter, your post suggests that Bernie Taupin was the lyricist, not the composer.

Is Weird Al a better composer than Elton John?  Mike Davis designs architectural parodies.

J - for guys our age that should have read: Is Weird Al a better composer than Bernie Taupin (lyrics for: Rocket Man, Levon, Crocodile Rock, Honky Cat, Candle in the Wind, Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, Bennie and the Jets, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me, Daniel, and I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues.)   

P


"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay,

You actually hit on an interesting point here.  How much liberty should a writer/reporter/media person take when conveying some occurrence in the news or publication otherwise?

And the answer, at least from where I sit....is as little as humanly possible. What I currently have little tolerance for in American news in general is that everything is sensationalized, taken out of context, interpreted, has an agenda, only reports one side, or otherwise chopped, maimed, or disfigured before it gets fed to the public. Its why I can't stand Fox News or MSNBC, etc, etc.

Media should observe and describe what occurs as objectively as possible..and save the interpretation/processing for the end user!

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kalen:

You mean like, for arguments sake, someone posting a link to a site that lists 10 of the worst holes on the best courses but then represents that article as stating that the author panned the whole golf course?  Something like that?

Just curious.  Or do you mean editorializing unambiguous quotes in what is portrayed as factual reporting?

Either way, I agree with your position.

Ryan

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps Mike himself can answer that.

"Some architects are really focused on aesthics, making sure players don't lose balls, making a hole look more natural. Ree's focus is more on strategy, and he's got a very good sense of how the worlds best players play the game"

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/pdf/is-the-doctor-done.pdf

Kalen, I don't think Mike really meant what he said there...I think that was one of those polite comments everyone expects, but it is precisely because of misconceptions like that that get spread around that we as a body exist - to examine such statements and assess our thoughts on them.

Jay- As a journalist that is a very strange statement. You purport to know that Reese didn`t mean what he said? The best thing you can do at this point is to slink away and hide as there is not one poster who agrees with you. I think your credibility takes a hit here,sorry. ::)

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rees understands something we seem to forget.

What is the history of the tournament play on that venue ?  How can we compare implements and balls without a comparison of the layout, as it was then.  If we doctor the course, thinking we can outdo the I/B, we lose that evaluation.
 
Just another thought !

David Camponi

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't know MD but judging by his idea of setup I would guess yes. I can tell you nobody is more dangerous to the game then Rees, his body of work as a whole is an embarassment. I have played several of his "updates" and the courses were already good before hand.... Maybe he just didn't destroy them completely despite his efforts. The guy is a bufoon and a joke, his arch is borderline stealing in some cases, others might argue that people play his courses and enjoy them, lots of people smoke crack as well. Jay feel free to quote me on that.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter, your post suggests that Bernie Taupin was the lyricist, not the composer.

Is Weird Al a better composer than Elton John?  Mike Davis designs architectural parodies.

J - for guys our age that should have read: Is Weird Al a better composer than Bernie Taupin (lyrics for: Rocket Man, Levon, Crocodile Rock, Honky Cat, Candle in the Wind, Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, Bennie and the Jets, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me, Daniel, and I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues.)   

P



That's correct, Kyle. Taupin wrote the words, then Elton John wrote the music... always in that order.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

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