Is #13 at TPC Sawgrass Pete Dye's attempt...

[George Pazin]

to one up the 16th at Augusta?

Judging solely by TV (apologies, JK & PM), they seem pretty similar in length, layout and play. Can anyone comment on their similarities and differences? And if so, which do you prefer?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I always thought it was a little like 4 at Harbor Town.

[Matthew Petersen]

Seems to play much tougher. The left side pin requires a much better and more perilous shot to get close to, even with the slope of the green.

[astavrides]

nice try at a Mucci threadtitle cliffhanger, but it revealed too much; e.g. the hole you were talking about and the designer. 

I think Pat might've titled the thread,

"Is this an attempt..."

[Jay Flemma]

TV is misleading...they play nothing alike.

[Mark Bourgeois]

George, antimetabolically I suggest to thee: rather than ask of 13 viz ANGC 16, ask of 16 viz ANGC 13.

[Bill_McBride]

George, antimetabolically I suggest to thee: rather than ask of 13 viz ANGC 16, ask of 16 viz ANGC 13.

Only without the strong dogleg, driving chute and water in front of the green?

[Tom_Doak]

George:

They are a little bit similar, if only because the pros attempt to use the slope in the middle of the green to feed the ball to left-hand hole locations, instead of actually going straight at the hole.

However, I spent at least an hour with Pete Dye at the first tournament in 1982 watching players at that particular hole, and he never mentioned it if he had thought about 16 at Augusta when creating the hole.

[Phil Benedict]

Did anyone see Mickelson's ball land 5 feet into the green and then roll into the water?  That's stupid design.

[Terry Lavin]

Did anyone see Mickelson's ball land 5 feet into the green and then roll into the water?  That's stupid design.

I saw it and I tend to agree.  I'm not a big fan of 16 at ANGC either.

[George Pazin]

George:

They are a little bit similar, if only because the pros attempt to use the slope in the middle of the green to feed the ball to left-hand hole locations, instead of actually going straight at the hole.

However, I spent at least an hour with Pete Dye at the first tournament in 1982 watching players at that particular hole, and he never mentioned it if he had thought about 16 at Augusta when creating the hole.

Did he happen to mention how much, if any, of the water hazard he created? The element of feeding the ball was a big part of what made me think of the similarities, apart from the obvious similarities of length and water hazard. The other thing was how the hole locations seemed similar.

If anyone can point me to a history of the creation of TPC Sawgrass, it would be much appreciated. I don't remember much if any discussion of it in Pete's book, but I read it so long ago I can't remember much.

Mark B -

I asked myself that same question shortly after I posted this thread. I wondered if there were other analogs out there. Not so much similar in a template sense, more in the sense of "You think that's a great short par 3? What do you think of this?!?"

[Steve Kline]

Did anyone see Mickelson's ball land 5 feet into the green and then roll into the water?  That's stupid design.

I saw it and I tend to agree.  I'm not a big fan of 16 at ANGC either.

It was a pretty piss poor shot. And I think it is more of maintenance issue than a design issue. Slow the greens down and there is no problem.

[Howard Riefs]

Perhaps the better question is rather: Is #13 a fair green.

As Golf Digest http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2011/05/mishap-on-no-13-frustrates-phil-mickelson.html describes Mickelson's mishap on 13 yesterday:

"His 8-iron found the middle of the putting surface on the 181-yard hole, but then his ball caught a slope on the left and trickled down all the way into the hazard. After a drop, he chipped his third back up the slope, but the ball retreated and nearly went in the hazard again. He took two putts for a double-bogey that stalled an otherwise promising round."

I played Sawgrass with my dad in December and his tee shot on 13 had the same result. The pin was front left. Dad's tee shot hit the spine -- 20 feet right of the stick -- and the ball continued to roll down the slope, past the pin, until it dropped into the water. It was certainly his best tee shot on the par 3s.

Mickelson didn't mince words about the green: "I don't know what to say. I don't know if it's the set-up or the design, but I just don't agree with that," Mickelson said after a one-under 71 left him seven behind leader Nick Watney after the first round. "I thought the question was would it stay up on top and be by the hole or was it going to roll down in the low area? I didn't know it could possibly go in the water. I think when I design golf courses, I try not to screw the player like that. I try to keep it a little bit fair. I don't know what I could have done differently."

[C. Squier]

Did anyone see Mickelson's ball land 5 feet into the green and then roll into the water?  That's stupid design.

I saw it and I tend to agree.  I'm not a big fan of 16 at ANGC either.

It was a pretty piss poor shot. And I think it is more of maintenance issue than a design issue. Slow the greens down and there is no problem.

Since when is a shot that hits the green with a normal trajectory from a tee box a "piss poor shot?"

[George Pazin]

Zinger was on Morning Drive this morning and discussed Phil's shot and subsequent complaint. He said, well, you know when you stand on the tee that if you hit it there, it's going in the water.

It sure didn't look anywhere close to the middle of the green to me.

[Will MacEwen]

Zinger was on Morning Drive this morning and discussed Phil's shot and subsequent complaint. He said, well, you know when you stand on the tee that if you hit it there, it's going in the water.

Fair comment by Zinger but that doesn't make it good design. 

Some observers were saying the issue was having the hazard not play as a lateral, and where he had to drop from. 

[Jason Topp]

Some observers were saying the issue was having the hazard not play as a lateral, and where he had to drop from. 

Ob the Golf Channel they said a drop area was available but Phil chose not to use it.