[Patrick_Mucci]

I've noticed, on a few AWT and Ross courses, flanking or rear plateaus on par 3's.

These plateaus are below the level of the putting surface, usually on elevated greens with fairly steep banks.

They usually extend out for about 5 yards.

Their architectural intent seems to be to serve as a safety net for marginally errant approaches.

Without these plateaus, balls missing the green would be deflected by the slope, far beyond the putting surface and usually into a very difficult lie/situation making recovery to the green difficult to impossible.

I have not noticed their (plateaus) presence on par 5's and par 4's to the degree they appear on par 3's.

Did AWT or Ross or other architects write about the introduction of this feature ?

Is it mostly an ODG's feature.

Is it a feature whose function has been diminished by modern day irrigation systems ?

Mike Policano, one of the most notable of these plateaus is at the rear of # 6 West at RCC.

Where else have you seen this feature ?

On par 3's ?

On Par 4's ?

On Par 5's ?

Has the incorporation of this feature into the green surrounds become a lost art ?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Mr. Mucci can you perhaps show a picture or two of the feature you are asking about? I am having trouble picturing what it is you are trying to describe. I am trying to run through my mind holes that I have played with what I think you are asking about, but I am having some trouble.

Are you talking about a feature such as the road on the Road Hole; or the American copies is said hole? I know the Road hole at Old Macdonald has a rather flat area running behind the green below the level of the green as do a couple of holes at the Charles Banks/dilapidation designed Annapolis Roads (what a pathetic place to see that is). But if that is not the feature you are asking about, I might be out of options.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Are we sure those greens just haven't been allowed to grow in, and the subsequent topdressing slightly raising the remaining putting surfaces, not unlike Pinehurst getting crowned greens via topdressing?

I would like to see pictures, too.

[Ken Moum]

On older courses, how many of those are abandoned bunkers? Many of which served a similar purpose.

At my home course (Ross), an aerial from 1948 clearly shows a greenside bunker to the left of #14.  That bunker would have caught balls that otherwise would have rolled down the steep hill left of the green.

Todat that bunker is gone.  If they hadn't filled quite so full, I am sure it would have created a plateau just like you describe.  Of course, these days balls don't roll down that hill because with irrigation the rough is so thick they CAN'T roll down the hill.

K

[Richard Choi]

There is such a feature on Chambers Bay #1.



The left side of the green falls off pretty steeply down about 20 or 30 feet below the green. From there, if you hit up and you leave it short, you will probably end up on this plateau instead of the ball rolling down all the way back to you. Saves quite a few strokes for mid to high handicappers.

[Brett Morris]

Perhaps such as this:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are we sure those greens just haven't been allowed to grow in, and the subsequent topdressing slightly raising the remaining putting surfaces, not unlike Pinehurst getting crowned greens via topdressing?

I would like to see pictures, too.

Jeff,

NO, these are not putting surface related features, but seperate features, like offset wings, or flanking and rear backstops, that prevent balls that miss the green from hitting the slope of the steep embankment and richoceting off into trouble that's difficult to impossible to recover from.

Unforturnately, I don't know how to post pictures, but, perhaps Mike Policano or someone else can.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mr. Mucci can you perhaps show a picture or two of the feature you are asking about? I am having trouble picturing what it is you are trying to describe. I am trying to run through my mind holes that I have played with what I think you are asking about, but I am having some trouble.

Are you talking about a feature such as the road on the Road Hole; or the American copies is said hole? I know the Road hole at Old Macdonald has a rather flat area running behind the green below the level of the green as do a couple of holes at the Charles Banks/dilapidation designed Annapolis Roads (what a pathetic place to see that is). But if that is not the feature you are asking about, I might be out of options.

Jamie,

Think of an elevated green with steep banks.

Then, at the midpoint of the elevation, think of a flanking or rear plateau, angled slightly up, rather than level or down, although, it could be those as well.

A pad or safety net for balls that miss the green, either aerially or on the bounce off the green.

These safety net plateaus prevent balls from being acclerated/deflected further away from the target green, keeping the ball closer to the green and allowing for recovery.

[Patrick_Mucci]

On older courses, how many of those are abandoned bunkers? Many of which served a similar purpose.

At my home course (Ross), an aerial from 1948 clearly shows a greenside bunker to the left of #14.  That bunker would have caught balls that otherwise would have rolled down the steep hill left of the green.

Todat that bunker is gone.  If they hadn't filled quite so full, I am sure it would have created a plateau just like you describe.  Of course, these days balls don't roll down that hill because with irrigation the rough is so thick they CAN'T roll down the hill.


Ken,

They're NOT abandoned bunkers, but, clearly constructed earthen features.

The one behind the 6th green, west, at Ridgewood is a good example.

[MikeJones]

It's not a feature I've seen a lot of and I'm not sure I like the idea either.

It's a get out of jail free card for anyone who attempts to get close to a pin that's tucked away on a tricky elevated green or perhaps a green that's set into a slope. It minimises strategy and allows players who are approaching from a sub optimal position to still go for the flag knowing that a miss might not get punished too badly.

Part of the fun of playing into greens set into sharp banks and 'drop offs' is that you know that the moment of truth has arrived and if you miss on the wrong side you're literally 'humped'

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's not a feature I've seen a lot of and I'm not sure I like the idea either.

It's a get out of jail free card for anyone who attempts to get close to a pin that's tucked away on a tricky elevated green or perhaps a green that's set into a slope.


It's certainly not a "get out of jail free card"

I've never seen the feature on a green set into a slope, so you're premise is in error.
Where the feature is seen is on elevated greens with steep slopes.
Without the feature, approaches MARGINALLY missing the green would have very difficult to impossible recoveries.

It minimises strategy and allows players who are approaching from a sub optimal position to still go for the flag knowing that a miss might not get punished too badly.

On a par 3, where's the sub-optimal position ?

Why wouldn't a missed approach not be punished too badly ?
These aren't huge structures/features.
Balll rarely come to rest on them.
When approaches hit these features, they usually roll to the base of the slope.
Without these features balls would bound off the slope and end up a considerable distance from the green, perhaps in a hazard, woods or some other unpleasant area from which recovery in single stroke is all but doomed.

Part of the fun of playing into greens set into sharp banks and 'drop offs' is that you know that the moment of truth has arrived and if you miss on the wrong side you're literally 'humped'

If you miss the 6th green long, on Ridgewood West, you're humped.
Without this feature, you'd take a telephone number.

[Ian_L]

I think it's somewhat pointless to argue the merits of the feature so generically. Using specific holes (with pictures for those of us who haven't played the course) would be more productive.  The Ridgewood example would be a good start.

[Steve Lang]

  Some Ross par 3 examples that I am very familiar with..  per Chris Buie thread "Southern Pines in April"  truly a beautiful time there most years   http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43997.0.html

definitely want to miss right here... not as steep as it looks




from left of green


a favorite

[Sean Leary]

There is such a feature on Chambers Bay #1.



The left side of the green falls off pretty steeply down about 20 or 30 feet below the green. From there, if you hit up and you leave it short, you will probably end up on this plateau instead of the ball rolling down all the way back to you. Saves quite a few strokes for mid to high handicappers.

But you wouldn't be there after your approach shot as any miss left there goes all the way to the bottom of the hill. Ask me how I know But from the bottom of the hill and approach that doesn't make it will end up there.

Isn't that the area that they are thinking about redoing for the Open?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

I am with Ian. Can you give us some specific examples of the feature you are talking about outside out Ridgewood's 6th?

[MikeJones]

It's not a feature I've seen a lot of and I'm not sure I like the idea either.

It's a get out of jail free card for anyone who attempts to get close to a pin that's tucked away on a tricky elevated green or perhaps a green that's set into a slope.


It's certainly not a "get out of jail free card"

I've never seen the feature on a green set into a slope, so you're premise is in error.
I said perhaps...
Where the feature is seen is on elevated greens with steep slopes.
Which is what I said....
Without the feature, approaches MARGINALLY missing the green would have very difficult to impossible recoveries.
Is that always a  bad thing?....

It minimises strategy and allows players who are approaching from a sub optimal position to still go for the flag knowing that a miss might not get punished too badly.

On a par 3, where's the sub-optimal position ?
You mentioned that you had seen it on par 4's and 5's as well....

Why wouldn't a missed approach not be punished too badly ?
I'm assuming its a kind of saving feature is it not?
These aren't huge structures/features.
Balll rarely come to rest on them.
When approaches hit these features, they usually roll to the base of the slope.
Without these features balls would bound off the slope and end up a considerable distance from the green, perhaps in a hazard, woods or some other unpleasant area from which recovery in single stroke is all but doomed.
Should golfers expect a safety net when they miss?

Part of the fun of playing into greens set into sharp banks and 'drop offs' is that you know that the moment of truth has arrived and if you miss on the wrong side you're literally 'humped'

If you miss the 6th green long, on Ridgewood West, you're humped.
Without this feature, you'd take a telephone number.

I stand by my dislike for such features and I'm not even very keen on saving bunkers for the same reason.

On my home course we have several elevated greens or greens set into side or downslopes creating a steep drop off on the side. On one of these we have saving bunkers which stops the ball bouncing into big trouble. On the others however if you miss, the ball might hit the bank and you'll be miles away (the drop off's are usually mown to allow the ball to bounce and roll even further away) with an almost impossible shot to get up and down.

I think that this kind of severe punishment on occasion makes for more challenging shots and better strategy on the longer holes.

[Will MacEwen]

Pat - I have seen one of these but can't for the life of me remember where.

One thing I like about them is that so often. long is death.  Missing short is often okay, or you can usually bail out a little left or right.  It is very rare that the preferred miss is long, so it is a nice change.

[Jason Topp]

I assume this is what you are discussing even though you cannot see it in this picture:



It appears that the back of the green drops to oblivion but in fact there is a shelf that stops many long shots from rolling into a pond.

It is still a challenge if you go long - a very ticklish pitch to a green that slopes away.  The shot, however is from near the green rather than 40 yards away after a penalty drop.

[Bill Brightly]

The one behind the 6th green, west, at Ridgewood is a good example.[/b][/size][/color]

Not a great photo of the feature that Pat is describing, but here is Ridgewood's 6th. Persoanlly, I think this is just what was left after the push up green was built.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

From the tee, from what __o'clock is that photo taken from ?

[Bill Brightly]

I believe this is taken from the left edge of the tee box, not straight on. If memory serves, I wanted to cut out the large hospitality tent on the left side of the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe this is taken from the left edge of the tee box, not straight on. If memory serves, I wanted to cut out the large hospitality tent on the left side of the green.

Bill, then the "safety net" plateau is behind the green and invisible to the golfer.

Perhaps Mike P can get a photo of the back of # 6 green.

I'm just trying to recall if someone installed a bunker in that area in recent years.

[Charlie Visconsi]

number #5 at siwanoy has this feature; the ball can roll off the front of the green but rarely will it continue to roll 40 yards down the hill.  It stays closer to the green (usually within about five yards)

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