[John Kavanaugh]

There was once a day when people from this site would not believe that Fazio would build such a penal feature.  Victoria National has several of these bunkers on her par 5's.  One of the great things about these are how they will change your strategy if your opponent finds himself restricted on his second shot.  Little reason to risk going for a green in two if you feel your opponent will not be arriving in three. 

Oh I forgot, aiming away from penal bunkers is reverse bizarro anti-strategic.

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
I'm with most of the others. This sounds like an interesting feature that forces some thought on the tee shot. If you can't get there anyway, then why flirt with the bunker if its that penal of a hazard. Hit it 240 instead of 260, hit the next one 210, and have 150 left into the green. If you want to have an easy wedge for the third you have to challenge the bunker on the tee shot. If the bunker presents an easy recovery, then why bother having it there in the first place?

[Jerry Kluger]

TD pointed out the penal nature of the pot bunkers at TOC but they are common throughout the course - what if they were only on one hole?  Let me put that in the context of Mike's original question: What if the bunker that he describes is a feature limited to one hole - does it work?  Does it have to look like it belongs on the course or is it okay to create the deep, penal bunker on one hole and no where else?  Generally, many of us do not like water hazards because they do not allow for the creative or skilled recovery shot so why is it okay to create a deep bunker specifically where there is no skillful or creative recovery shot available?   

[Andy Troeger]

Jerry,
Do you have an examples of a course where there's only one example of a deep penal bunker? Its easy to say yay or nay to the general question, but I can't think of anyplace that it would actually apply where you could say that bunker is out of place. Its probably out there somewhere. I can think of far more courses that have one water hazard that's woefully out of place, especially when its the 18th hole of a course with no other water hazards. 

I find the best courses combine strategic and penal hazards--one hazard certainly can be both. I'm also one that doesn't have anything against water hazards as long as they are used well and in moderation. I wouldn't want to see a pitch-out bunker on both sides of every hole any more than I would ponds, but both have their place.

[Jerry Kluger]

Andy: I don't have an example as I was just throwing the question out there.  My other question concerns the quality recovery shot and as Bill B has pointed out - what makes this any different than a water hazard.  But I don't know that I agree with that proposition.

[George Pazin]

Short hitters deserve the occasional challenge as well. What fun is it to have the hazards where only the pros find them?

[Bill Brightly]

Andy: I don't have an example as I was just throwing the question out there.  My other question concerns the quality recovery shot and as Bill B has pointed out - what makes this any different than a water hazard.  But I don't know that I agree with that proposition.

Jerrry,

It is often hard to advance a ball even 80 yards out of a water hazard. What don't you agree with in that proposition?

[John Kavanaugh]

Short hitters deserve the occasional challenge as well. What fun is it to have the hazards where only the pros find them?

You can't hide a hazard from a short hitter.  It just takes two for them to get there.

note: This is Whisper Rock, one club that doesn't need a bunch of hacks to pay the bills. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Bill: Perhaps I didn't make my point well.  Generally, I don't like it when water hazards are created in a landing area since there are no quality recovery shots available.  That being said, an extremely penal bunker which is created in a landing area doesn't allow for a quality recovery shot which can be viewed as a simple way to add a stroke to a player's score.  TOC has some really tough pot bunkers but it also has a great deal of width so the player can stay away from them although his next shot will probably be far more difficult coming at the wrong angle. 

[Tim Martin]

There was once a day when people from this site would not believe that Fazio would build such a penal feature.  Victoria National has several of these bunkers on her par 5's.  One of the great things about these are how they will change your strategy if your opponent finds himself restricted on his second shot.  Little reason to risk going for a green in two if you feel your opponent will not be arriving in three. 

Oh I forgot, aiming away from penal bunkers is reverse bizarro anti-strategic.

Despite some research I could not find a definition for reverse bizzarro anti-strategic. I guess I probably should have left out the hyphen.  

[George Pazin]

note: This is Whisper Rock, one club that doesn't need a bunch of hacks to pay the bills. 

I was speaking generally, John, not specific to Whisper Rock. Still, are there no short straight hitters anymore? How about older golfers, are they not to have any challenge, but rather to be coddled? I'd have thought this was one area you and I could agree.

[John Kavanaugh]

note: This is Whisper Rock, one club that doesn't need a bunch of hacks to pay the bills. 

I was speaking generally, John, not specific to Whisper Rock. Still, are there no short straight hitters anymore? How about older golfers, are they not to have any challenge, but rather to be coddled? I'd have thought this was one area you and I could agree.

Bunkers for straight short hitters. Wow.

[George Pazin]

So you've never played with anyone who hits it 240 and generally straight, but will miss one occasionally? Even Fred Funk misses 20% of his fairways.

I know you reflexively disagree with my posts, John, but I'd think you'd be against the sort of dumming down that seems to be advocated here. I actually thought your earlier post about the satisfying drive, 8, 4, 2 putt was pretty clever, seemed like we were on the same page then.

[Matthew Petersen]

I don't have a problem with it. What's the point of having a bunker at all if it's not going to impede the second shot to some extent?

[John Kavanaugh]

So you've never played with anyone who hits it 240 and generally straight, but will miss one occasionally? Even Fred Funk misses 20% of his fairways.

I know you reflexively disagree with my posts, John, but I'd think you'd be against the sort of dumming down that seems to be advocated here. I actually thought your earlier post about the satisfying drive, 8, 4, 2 putt was pretty clever, seemed like we were on the same page then.

George,

I know a bunch of guys who have grown older and now play the shorter but straighter game.  Not a single one feels coddled by coming up short of the fairway bunker that captures the younger longer hitter.  It is actually fun to win, you should try it sometime.

[archie_struthers]

 


Just can't stand collection areas...hate them loathe them despise them....particularly ones with drains in them....don';t know many features that could be any worse....littered with divots , bad stances and to me a symbol of lazy architecture

[George Pazin]

George,

I know a bunch of guys who have grown older and now play the shorter but straighter game.  Not a single one feels coddled by coming up short of the fairway bunker that captures the younger longer hitter.  It is actually fun to win, you should try it sometime.

 

I doubt anyone is advocating moving all the bunkers to 240, it just doesn't bother me to have an occasional one.

[Tim Nugent]

A fairway bunker IS a Hazard.  As such, erroniously hitting into one should extract a degree of penalty - maybe 1/4 stroke or 3/4 stroke but in any event, a partial stroke.  This means one can advance the ball and have a lesser distance for his next shot but by no means an unencumbered shot that would be on parady with a properly executed shot, which lands in the fairway.
Since there are a multitude of tee options at Whisper Rock, perhaps instead of blaming the architect for misappropiate bunker placement, one should 1st endeavor to not be guilty of misappropiate tee selection.
Often times, an architect will set a bunker at the beginning of a landing area to define it, then one long and on the opposite side to deliniate the ending of it.  The 1st one, no one should go into but the last is the one which may trip you up.

[Kalen Braley]

I've always felt bunker distance off the tee is mitigated for the most part depending on which tee one chooses to play.

Given the standard 4 tee configuration, red, white, blue, black.....I've seen several good working examples over the years where a bunker would be:

180 from the red tee
220 from the white
245 from the blue
270 from the black

This has always seemed to be a good way to challenge the most amount of people off the tee using the same obstacle.

[jeffwarne]

Even on an "unreachable"  600 yarder, I think it'd be just fine to have one of those bunkers, as long as it's only in play for the longest of hitters off the tee, say 280-300 yards out.

Mike, Do you have any specific examples which we may draw from?

Alex is right, we need to see the rest of the hole. There really are very few 600 yard par 5's in my experience, but if the hole is 600 then such a bunker needs to be 260-280 off the tee, not 240. And there needs to be plenty of room away from this bunker.

Seems like a lot of rules...
Can't a bunker just be random?
and with up to 5 sets of tees ,just how exatly can it be just the right distance from every tee?

[Bill Brightly]

I think there are worst features

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Mike,

Artificial ponds remain firmly at the top of least favorite.

[RSLivingston_III]

Short hitters deserve the occasional challenge as well. What fun is it to have the hazards where only the pros find them?

If the short hitter is playing from the appropriate tees, they would be challenged by the bunkers.

[archie_struthers]

 

Garland talked about artificial ponds and I'd agree theyt can be ugly. But you often need to build lakes for drainage,particularly with municipalities mandating all drainage must remain on site. The trick of really good artistic work is to make them appear natural .
  

[Lester George]

How often does the "average golfer" play a 600 yard hole?

Lester

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