[Eric Strulowitz]

I have been fortunate to have played a third or so of these courses.  They are all great, no doubt about it.   Would not tun down the opportunity to play any ot them.   But IMHO, this ranking is a joke, as are most rankings unfortunately.   For example, to put Leven Links, Lundin,  or Panmure in front of Elie or Luffness, Please!   A good laugh to start of the day!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Simon

As you know I have lists as so many factors apply when playing courses to actually rate them fairly. Simple factors as how you feel with yourself, those you are playing with, the weather, none of which are identical at each course one plays so I just hate placing them on lists. Nearly every course I have played upon has offered something, if nothing more than the unknown.

Having said that I would say get yourself down to Prestwick Ken Goodwin being the Secretary and get a round in pretty damn quickly, in fact two, Then enjoy a walk round the club and its history, worth the visit for that if nothing else. Also before leaving Prestwick you must play Prestwick St Nicholas just up the road.

I would also mention that as you have listed Leven you must play the other half of that sandwich Lundin. I have never been very fond of Troon or Turnberry, just can’t put my finger on it but I would happily past without stopping. Now speak to me what have you done, see these lists are pointless as no mention of Carnoustie – now what a pussycat if approached in the right mind and the sun is up in the Heavens.

Come on Simon, what was that you mentioned “Nothing to do with the fact I grew up in East Lothian and went to University in Fife.” I do hate these lists because it forces me to make the following comment ‘the next thing you will be telling me is that you have a tow bar on your car for your own personal cart and only calculate your choice of club via a Rangefinder even from the Tee’ – don’t you just hate lists.

What about Moray Old – although due to new members recently I hear the club has been dropping its standards (only joking Niall). Then again what about Machrihanish, Machrie even Askernish, this sodding list just p@#*”#me off as PR is at best a compromise. You should know better coming from East Lothian and have been to the Uni of St Andrews – golfing education seems to be failing lately from the Hall of St Andrews – of course I am not serious. Bloody lists.

Melvyn  

[Simon Holt]

Hi Melvyn,

Haha!  I dont even drive a car let alone a cart!  Trust me, walking and caddies when I can afford it on a very, very special occassion are my only aids!

Obviously the East Lothian and Fife comment was me laughing at my own bias.  I need to travel more widely in this country but I have been fortunate enough to be exploring the rest of the world before any kids arrive on the scene in the Holt household!

I have had a few opportunities to play Prestwick but it always clashes with something, usually a wedding as I am at that age it seems.  I am combining the two to play RCD again in June though so weddings arent all bad!

I have walked and caddied at Carnoustie around 6 times in the Dunhill.  It always strikes me as the best condition of the 3 and I would love to play but again, there has always been clashes.  I will make a point of it this year.

I too see no real merit in lists this long- just having a bit of fun recommending my personal choices on where people should visit speaking directly from experience rather than hearsay.  Agreed, they are a PR tool but I was trying to use it to start a debate on the strength of depth of our courses as some on this list seem to be there to literally just make up the numbers.


Mark P-


Long time!  How was your round with Mac?  great guy!  Why not so much love for Gullane?

S

[Brian_Ewen]

Has anyone played The Hirsel ?

Embarrassed to say, I had to google it

I see its described as the "Augusta of the Borders" ?

No place in the Top 100 for the "Pebble Beach of Scotland"  

[Brian_Ewen]

Brian,
I know what your getting, Edzell is a nice walk; beautiful scenery.  Whats the hole with the paintball place next door to it and the telegraph poles running down the right hand side?  Not the best hole out there.

Simon
I have to be careful what I say, as I have many friends that are members of Edzell, and I get signed on the course quite a lot.

I used to have a lot of time for Edzell, but they have been far too successful the last few years, which means they have to much money to waste on lengthening holes, adding more bunkers and especially growing long grass.

The once heathland feel it had is long gone, and its real chore to play nowadays IMO.

The hole you mention is the 15th, the paintball is on a better piece of land nowadays than the course, and the poles on the (?) left side used to be the railway line .... which must have been interesting !

I think nearby Forfar is so much better than Edzell nowadays ..... so why isnt it on this list ?

[Niall Hay]

Mark I was suprised to see Troons Portland course missing, quite a few on that list I know nothing of. Golf World are doing a Top 100 of England next month and one of Wales and Ireland I think to follow. Generally I think the list is pretty good.

/quote]

Agreed on Troon's Portland course....

[Ross Tuddenham]

Has anyone played The Hirsel ?

Embarrassed to say, I had to google it

I see its described as the "Augusta of the Borders" ?

No place in the Top 100 for the "Pebble Beach of Scotland"  

Yes played it a couple of times.  Not sure where they get the Augusta tag from other than the fact they would both benefit from some work with a chainsaw.

I remember liking what it had to offer as it was over some interesting land and the routing seemed to make good use of this with a varied set of holes.

I was surprised to see another Borders course, the Roxburgh, so high up the list.  I would take Gullane 2, Dunbar, Glasgow Gails, kilspindie, the jubilee and the eden over it any day. In fact looking at it all the courses down to about 75.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Anytime I see a list with Turnberry at #1 - I question it

For mine there is a big drop off in quality from around the 20 or so best courses in Scotland and that's about where the list should end. Not that I agree the courses listed therein by GW.

Turnberry would be my number 1 but its an opinion, the great thing about golf courses is we all like different things from them. Perhaps if you had 1 Scottish play it would be TOC, choice 2 might be Prestwick, that might be a different way of evaluating.

[Niall C]

RCAA #22 with a bullet!  Are there really 12 courses better than Prestwick?

Yes, but not necessarily the ones listed 

Niall

[Niall C]

Anytime I see a list with Turnberry at #1 - I question it

For mine there is a big drop off in quality from around the 20 or so best courses in Scotland and that's about where the list should end. Not that I agree the courses listed therein by GW.

Turnberry would be my number 1 but its an opinion, the great thing about golf courses is we all like different things from them. Perhaps if you had 1 Scottish play it would be TOC, choice 2 might be Prestwick, that might be a different way of evaluating.

Adrian

Totally agree about it all being a matter of opinion. Simon mentions Kilspindie as being in his top twenty. I love Kilspindie but it wouldn't be in my list of best courses. It might make the charming list, or even the fun list. Sean mentions Cruden Bay, possibly Scotlands most over-rated course and but marks down Southerness and Machrihanish which to my mind are far superior. Its all a matter of opinion.

Two things I find interesting is the ones that are missing and also the number of modern designs. By my reckoning there are about 25, or one quarter of the list which were built in the last twenty years which isn't what I might expect from a place like Scotland.

As a matter of interest, how many courses on the list have people actually played ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Nial - I dont see why modern designs cant figure their way in and if you have a long list then there will be more, if you had a TOP 600 LIST of Scotland all would be there of course. I think two things are to be remembered, firstly this site has a skewed opinion toward a style, its one I largely agree with too but it can be minority. Secondly, the Golf World lists are compiled by a large panel of respected people in the game, the result is a collective of good minds. When you factor that we all like slightly different things and some see Cruden Bay very, some see flaws, and some revel TOC as the ONE whilst many see flaws, no one is going to produce a list that wont cause some yawns and howls of derision.

I want to see The Castle course for myself (CUE: MELVYN) some of our members absolutely loved it, a few would replay that over Kingsbarns, a few thought the New Course was very average and couple just did not get TOC. The Newer courses at St Andrews do have some part to play in best of list and courses like the Kintyre are still pretty good. Our members speak highly of Archerfield and I have not heard a bad word about Castle Stuart. There are about 10 courses in that list I know nothing about and about 30 that this site has enlightened me to.

[Jim McCann]

Niall,

Well done - you've hit the nail squarely on the head by posing the question "how many courses on the list have people actually played?"

I frown when armchair critics bleat that 100 courses is too high a number to rank because, in their opinion, there are only such and such a number worth the bother to compare against each other. How can they possibly know this if they haven't played many/most of those that they feel should be disregarded?

Scotland boasts an excellent Top 50 and a very strong third quartile of courses, then you can argue over the next 25 positions between at least 50 very good club courses. A top 100 for Scotland represents the best 17% of layouts in the country and I for one am really happy to see more of the second tier tracks gain exposure at the expense of the usual suspects where all the tourists visit.

If it wasn't for more expansive lists like this one I'd have missed many genuine nuggets that are really worth playing, like Kilmacolm and
Forfar, to quote but two.

I haven't played four of the Golf World Scots Top100 (these are unranked "gems" on the www.top100golfcourses.co.uk chart) but I intend to remedy that situation very shortly indeed.          

Some of the sniffy "experts" on this site who love to disparage golfing lists and, by inference, those associated with the creation/update of such lists, should get over the fact that rankings are here to stay. If the great golfing public didn't want them, they'd have died a death by now...

[Niall C]

Jim

Steady on, I was merely posing a question, not issuing a call to arms !

To answer my own question I would say I've played 65 of those listed and have had some very positive comments on several of the others from golfing pals who's opinions I trust. That said there are quite a few on there that surprised me a few omissions which frankly shows the panel needs to get around a bit more.

I'd love to challenge Sean on his strength of depth claim but sadly I can't because I haven't played enough south of the border to compare and contrast.

Adrian,

I was actually pointing out the number of new courses as a positive. I note your comments about the collective of minds on the panel but I would love to know what courses in Scotland the panel have actually played. For instance I wonder how many of them have made it into deepest darkest Lanarkshire to play Hamilton, Wishaw or Strathaven. Or indeed managed to stop off long enough while dashing from Cruden bay to Dornoch to play Elgin or Forres. I suspect not many if any as, as you say, those courses don't fit the likely profile. A great shame IMO.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Nial - I was not taking issue with you at all and you are correct there is going to be a few that missed the radar. If you have a panel of 100 judges then only a few would have played Askernish, this may be the reason for its #72 rank. The same will be true of the other courses you mentioned, Kingussie I was quite fond of, it was very short and a long time ago but I enjoyed that, had I been a rater I may have pointed that to the 100 at the expense of a course more worthy.....

Jim - You make a great point about people liking ranking lists, it is a reason for buying the magazines and those issue containing LISTS are amongst the best selling editions. Even on here everytime a thread pops up with RANKING on it there are the scoffers who think only their opinion is the one not to smell.

[Sean_A]

Anytime I see a list with Turnberry at #1 - I question it

For mine there is a big drop off in quality from around the 20 or so best courses in Scotland and that's about where the list should end. Not that I agree the courses listed therein by GW.

Turnberry would be my number 1 but its an opinion, the great thing about golf courses is we all like different things from them. Perhaps if you had 1 Scottish play it would be TOC, choice 2 might be Prestwick, that might be a different way of evaluating.

Adrian

Totally agree about it all being a matter of opinion. Simon mentions Kilspindie as being in his top twenty. I love Kilspindie but it wouldn't be in my list of best courses. It might make the charming list, or even the fun list. Sean mentions Cruden Bay, possibly Scotlands most over-rated course and but marks down Southerness and Machrihanish which to my mind are far superior. Its all a matter of opinion.

Two things I find interesting is the ones that are missing and also the number of modern designs. By my reckoning there are about 25, or one quarter of the list which were built in the last twenty years which isn't what I might expect from a place like Scotland.

As a matter of interest, how many courses on the list have people actually played ?

Niall

Niall

You must keep in mind that what I would recommend and what I like the best are not the same animal.  For instance, I don't have much interest in returning to most of the Open rota in Scotand, but I can certainly understand why others would place them high on a bucket list.  Another course which I don't have much time for is Crail, but I could see why others may love it.  I am not overly keen on TOC, but how can it not be recommended?  Spending my money to play and what I may suggest for others is not nearly the same thing.  I think this has always been a problem of sorts with these lists.  A great many of the raters, no matter which list, are on freebies.  Anytime someone is on a jolly he can be considered suspect in terms of delivering a well measured opinion unless one is well acquainted with that rater and can sort through the quagmire.    

For the record, I have seen 47 (I think) of this list.  Comfortably enough to know that suggesting a top 100 is appropriate for Scotland is the heart rather than the head talking.  Although I am sure there are more must sees in Scotland than I listed and who knows, perhaps I will get round to seeing a few.   But to suggest that there are 100 must sees (and that is how I read a best of list for a region/country or why bother mentioning them?) in Scotland is so far from reality that its hard to know where to begin in refuting it.  I started with Tain, Glasgow Gailes and The Glen.  If somebody wants to trump those courses as top anything than imo their opinion is so differently calibrated from mine that we may as well be speaking different languages.   That doesn't mean these courses aren't worthwhile, but they can hardly be considered worthy of international praise when compared to the many great courses so very nearby. 

Ciao      

[Simon Holt]

I have played 42 on the list.  There may only be 9 out of the rest I would want to go and see this weekend if someone offered me a round.  I have not heard much or read much about the other 49 that would make me want to.

[Tony_Muldoon]

12


Not played it, but I'd always thought this group might want Gullane No3 in there?

[Kevin Pallier]

As a matter of interest, how many courses on the list have people actually played ?

Niall

Niall

Close to half of them.

I take the approach here as to which one's I recommend people go out of their way to play or or one's that I would like to revisit again. There's only around 20 odd courses that I would definitely recommend one see after my travels throughout Scotland. Obviously there's a few like Castle Stuart and Machrihanish that I look forward to seeing as to whether I'd put them in that category.

[Scott Warren]

I've only played seven courses on the list, so I won't wade into any debate about where courses ought to be placed or whether 100 is too many courses, but what I will say is that such if such a long list is necessary to give Golspie a worthy plug, then I'm glad the list is so long.

In practice though, would it not perhaps be more useful to have the Top X amount, whether it's 30, 50, 75... whatever, then a series of top 5-10s of various categories, such as:

• Best "village" links courses
• Best inland courses
• Best courses under 6500yds
• Best sister courses to the top 20 (eg. Murcar/R. Aber, Panmure/Carnoustie - basically something good nearby)
• Best scenery
• Hardest courses

That sort of thing would at least give readers some kind of idea what is great about the lesser cousres that otherwise scrape into the bottom of a Top 100 for a variety of reasons which can be hard to discern unless you've been there, whereas with specific categories you are making clear what is meritorious about them.

It also gives clear indication of what's so great about the better courses. Someone into challenge can see which courses might be best, someone into quirk can see where it's found in the greatest quanities. Of course many of us like a variety of factors and we could cross reference and cherry pick to see which courses appear to be something we'd want to check out.

[Mark Chaplin]

Marty - you need an invite to three of the top 25 courses and five of the top 35 - Loch Lomond, Renaissance, Carnegie Club and Archerfield Fidra/Dirlton. I can only think of three in the whole of England requiring an invite and none are English top 50 - Goodwood, Queenwood and Wisley. The homeland isn't as open as you'd like to think it is.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

If I could gift you the Castle Courses I would, but never forget its meant to be a St Andrews course.
Yet from its concept is was always going to be a bastard. Just look at the turbulent ravaging of plain gentle sloping farmland into this Disney playground of fanciful holes. Its has nothing to do with St Andrews apart from being set up to make money on the back of the name St Andrews.

Plus add to that the extra money being spent to try and correct the Helter Skelter effect of some of the Greens. For me it represents all that is wrong with the modern game starting from its violent conception – more a result of the land being severely ravaged and raped.

As a golf course in any other part of the country or world it may be more than acceptable but it’s not anywhere else it’s at St Andrews and its pretending to be a St Andrews course.

I know the land that was sacrificed for this monstrosity, and I am of the opinion that planning permission should never have been granted as it is far from natural let alone blending with the surrounding countryside.


Melvyn

[Mark Chaplin]

Melvyn - didn't the Links Trust see the commercial success of Kingsbarns also "crafted" from farmland and decide they wanted a piece of the revenue? I've played neither so will not comment on their golfing and design position but there is no doubt Kingsbarns is full of golfers looking for the (faux) links experience and paying more for it than on the traditional courses.

The Castle Course may not be loved by purists but it is easy to see why it was built.

[Brian_Ewen]

Anybody know whats happening at G-West ?

[Jim McCann]

Brian

Fairways at gWest are lying fallow from what I saw driving past the course on the A9 a couple of weeks ago.

[Simon Holt]

Mark C,

If you want to play a round at the Archerfield courses you can.  They advertise on some of the local hotelliers websites like the Old Clubhouse in Gullane.  I cant remember how much it is.

I see your point though versus the rankings of the likeminded clubs in England (clearly we had better land and the architect fit for the job at RC! ).  I think the 'exclusive' golf offering in Scotland is easier to facilitate than down South as we ride on the 'Home of Golf' tag.  Affluent international golfers want to be a member of a good course in Scotland and many that they desire have long waiting lists and the red tape that goes with that.  These places allow for that niche.  We could talk all day about whether it works/is in keeping with Scottish golf etc, but there is a market for it.

I certainly know here at Renaissance I market the fact to international and domestic golfers that we are only 15 minutes from 20 other golf courses.  Perhaps 5 of which are an absolute must if you are staying here.  I think any developer who builds an exclusive club with the thought that people will only want to come and play there and no where else should consider building in another country-preferably with better weather!

S

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