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Mark Pearce

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2011, 08:01:53 AM »
5, Simon?  Obviously HCEG and NBWL are no-brainers but which others do you consider "absolute musts"?  Gullane, Luffness and Dunbar?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Simon Holt

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2011, 09:09:50 AM »
Hi Mark,

Ok, my wording might suggest its life or death to play those courses.  If someone has travelled accross an ocean then I would 'strongly encourage' them to play the 5 you have mentioned.  Gullane No. 1 is a big hit with visitors to EL, I think Dunbar is certainly worth the 15 minute drive from the club and Luffness has wonderful greens and the old school club experience like the HCEG.

You are right though- Muirfield and NB and the 100% must plays for that type of clientel.

A common itinerary that I would set up for our members would involve NBW, Muirfield and Gullane 9 times out of 10.  Dunbar less so but Luffness gets quite a few visitors from us as a few of our members belong there so invite others.

The group I have just finalised today are playing in June- Renaissance and Gullane Tuesday, then Muirfield and the Old Course Wednesday, Prestwick and Turnberry Thursday, 3 day Member Guest at Renaissance, then North Berwick to finish.  Not bad...and not cheap either!

Not exactly your regular trip but its nice to dream!

S

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2011, 09:52:07 AM »
Simon - no arguments on whether the models work it was more Marty suggesting Scotland is open to all at the highly rated clubs! In England Wisley worked because of it's location, it matters not the excess of your bottom-line you cannot join the best local clubs without the correct contacts.

I liked the fact that Loch Lomond used to offer access on a very limited basis via the SGU.

TOC and Muirfield on the same day??
Cave Nil Vino

Simon Holt

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2011, 10:10:10 AM »
Mark,

Correct on the bottom line front, essentially that is what these clubs bypass when they first open although I can only speak for ourselves and say we are still very selective.  We have turned away more than you would think.

Muirfield and TOC in the one day requires membership, said bottom line and a head for heights!

I actually visited Loch Lomond on those SGU times many years ago.  It was a good format- still wasnt cheap though!

S
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mark Pearce

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2011, 10:17:43 AM »
TOC and Muirfield on the same day??
And on a Wednesday!  Missing lunch at Muirfield on a Wednesday (the most popular day for member play) is to miss one of the great British golf club traditions.  Heathens!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2011, 10:44:57 AM »
TOC and Muirfield on the same day??
And on a Wednesday!  Missing lunch at Muirfield on a Wednesday (the most popular day for member play) is to miss one of the great British golf club traditions.  Heathens!


Not sure about describing those who miss lunch as heathens but the members could probably be described as troglodytes.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/39You-can-come-in-now.6760113.jp 

Simon Holt

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2011, 10:52:33 AM »
TOC and Muirfield on the same day??
And on a Wednesday!  Missing lunch at Muirfield on a Wednesday (the most popular day for member play) is to miss one of the great British golf club traditions.  Heathens!

Believe me, they are having lunch! 

S
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mark Pearce

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2011, 11:14:35 AM »
Ross,

Would you say the same of the Ladies only golf clubs in St Andrews? 

I know that many golf clubs have given long and very serious consideration to the provisions of the Equality Act.  However, unless single sex clubs are to be banned completely (and I wonder if, in the wide world, there aren't more women only than men only clubs) it seems that what HCEG has done is  both balanced and reasonable. 
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2011, 02:18:00 PM »
Ross - having visited clubs in the USA where women are;

Allowed on the property on the Saturday before Christmas to buy presents for their husband.

Have to drop the golfer at the front gates (450yds from the clubhouse) leaving the gentleman to the "walk of shame".

I'd say the HCEG are being rather modern in their approach!

Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2011, 02:25:34 PM »
Nial - I was not taking issue with you at all and you are correct there is going to be a few that missed the radar. If you have a panel of 100 judges then only a few would have played Askernish, this may be the reason for its #72 rank. The same will be true of the other courses you mentioned, Kingussie I was quite fond of, it was very short and a long time ago but I enjoyed that, had I been a rater I may have pointed that to the 100 at the expense of a course more worthy.....

Adrian

Just a couple of weeks ago I drove to Kingussie and couldn't decide whether to play it or the nearby Newtonmore. Newtonmore won out but Kingussie is definitely on the radar.

Scott W/Sean,

One of my favourite golfing books is "The Golf World Top 1000 UK Courses". Its by far the best guide out there IMHO. It sections the courses into firstly countries, and then secondly counties. Then it lists the courses in each county by their star rating out of 5. Generally each county has one or more 5 star rating ie. Ayrshire has Prestwick, Turnberry and Troon as 5 stars and then the rest cascade down to 2 or 3 as the lowest ratings. Each course has vsiitor comments which describe the course and its amazing how a handful of comments can sum up a course beautifully.

Ranking the courses in clusters ie. how many stars they have rather than an absolute ranking is perhaps a better way of doing it but they also do/did a UK top 100 as well as listing the next 100 which was in alphabetical order. On top of that they had the Top 20 Hardest, a Top 20 Best Value and so on.

The last edition was about 10 years ago I think, so about time they brought out another edition.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2011, 02:27:23 PM »
Ross - having visited clubs in the USA where women are;

Allowed on the property on the Saturday before Christmas to buy presents for their husband.

Have to drop the golfer at the front gates (450yds from the clubhouse) leaving the gentleman to the "walk of shame".

I'd say the HCEG are being rather modern in their approach!



HCEG more modern ! You mean the walk of shame is only 50 yards  ;)

Sean_A

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2011, 04:30:55 AM »
Nial - I was not taking issue with you at all and you are correct there is going to be a few that missed the radar. If you have a panel of 100 judges then only a few would have played Askernish, this may be the reason for its #72 rank. The same will be true of the other courses you mentioned, Kingussie I was quite fond of, it was very short and a long time ago but I enjoyed that, had I been a rater I may have pointed that to the 100 at the expense of a course more worthy.....

Adrian

Just a couple of weeks ago I drove to Kingussie and couldn't decide whether to play it or the nearby Newtonmore. Newtonmore won out but Kingussie is definitely on the radar.

Scott W/Sean,

One of my favourite golfing books is "The Golf World Top 1000 UK Courses". Its by far the best guide out there IMHO. It sections the courses into firstly countries, and then secondly counties. Then it lists the courses in each county by their star rating out of 5. Generally each county has one or more 5 star rating ie. Ayrshire has Prestwick, Turnberry and Troon as 5 stars and then the rest cascade down to 2 or 3 as the lowest ratings. Each course has vsiitor comments which describe the course and its amazing how a handful of comments can sum up a course beautifully.

Ranking the courses in clusters ie. how many stars they have rather than an absolute ranking is perhaps a better way of doing it but they also do/did a UK top 100 as well as listing the next 100 which was in alphabetical order. On top of that they had the Top 20 Hardest, a Top 20 Best Value and so on.

The last edition was about 10 years ago I think, so about time they brought out another edition.

Niall

Niall

Yes, I have the book.  I used it years ago quite a bit, but now rarely refer to it.  To a large degree the Top 100 site has usurped this book because it hasn't been updated in so long.  That site filled in at the right moment and has been slowly building for years.  I know guys on here who want so called expert opinion to be the mainstay of who is listened to, but I have a lot of time for punter opinion because they pay green fees.  Sure, the comments have to sifted through, but at least there are heart felt comments rather than the usual fauning blather of guys on a free ride.  I don't know why Golf World didn't update their book because the idea was good in sort of combining expert and punter opinion and using stars to rather than a straight ranking.  Things are terribly different from the best of the best 100 to the 5 star courses, but once 4 star courses are mentioned there is a significant difference of opinion from the experts.  We may not agree taht these are true top 100 contenders, but becasue of the star/grouping system many courses are flagged as potential ones to visit after more considered research.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ralph Thompson

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2011, 09:39:00 AM »
I have played over 50 of these courses and I consider this list some sort of sick joke! It looks like somebody has picked what he believes to be the top 20 courses in Scotland and then just looked at a map to find another 80 to fill the gaps in. There is no rhyme or reason to this list.

Niall C

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2011, 01:52:17 PM »
Sean

I think we are largely on the same page. What I love about the book is that it tells you so much more than how many stars a course has or whether it is fantastic. It tells you why its fantastic in a way that doesn't require two pages of fill before getting down to the gist. It also tells you something about loads of 3rd tier courses which are more affordable and worth a visit. As you say, courses that you wouldn't necessarily fly the Atlantic for but that you might organise a day trip around.

Niall

Jim McCann

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2011, 03:24:25 PM »
Ralph

With the greatest of respect, I think if you examine the Golf World Scottish Top100 chart a little more closely you’ll find that
there’s more than a modicum of “rhyme or reason” to its composition.

If you take the Golf World “1000 Best Courses in Britain and Ireland” book that Niall and Sean have been referring to earlier on
this thread (I have the 2004 edition) then you will find that a substantial number of the top Scottish courses featured in its
pages appear in this latest Top 100 list.

Going through the ratings in the book:

All fifteen 5-star Scottish courses are ranked between 1 and 43 with thirteen of the fifteen ranked from 1 to 14.
(St.Andrews (New) is at 28 and Gleneagles (Queen’s) at 43).

Thirty eight of forty 4-star Scottish courses are ranked between 11 (North Berwick) and 84 (Duff House Royal).
Only Gullane (No. 3) and Kingussie fail to make the chart from the book’s 4-star rating list.

Twenty four of seventy one 3-star courses and six of forty two 2-star courses also make the new chart.

Sixteen* of the seventeen remaining spots are taken by new courses that have been created since the book was published
so the only REAL surprise to emerge is Hirsel at number 100.

Personally, I was also taken aback by the inclusion of one or two of the new courses listed below but then that’s the nature
of the beast when you get involved in the murky world of ranking golf courses.

Some observers may feel uneasy about the lofty chart positions occupied by a couple of the invite-only courses but I’m more
worried when I see an (albeit charming) 12-holer on a Scottish island break into the national Top 50.

As an aside… at the front of the same “1000 Best” book, it has Royal Worlington & Newmarket ranked at number 3 in a Top 10
of parkland courses so maybe Shiskine really does deserve its position if the sacred nine can make a Top 10 in GB&I
(never mind a Top 100 in England)!!!

You can argue all you want about the relative positions of courses within the Gold World Scottish Top100 chart but it includes
83 well established top tracks that were identified as such by Golf World seven years ago, along with at least a dozen of the
very best new layouts to emerge in recent times which only leaves room to quibble about a handful of positions – and any five
from a dozen very good club courses could fill those slots.

* Castle Stuart, St Andrews (Castle), Renaissance Club, Dundonald, Machrihanish Dunes, Archerfield (Fidra), Archerfield (Dirleton), Tunberry (Kintyre), Spey Valley, Fairmont Torrance, Rowallan Castle, Askernish, The Carrick, Craigielaw, Meldrum House, Earl of Mar.



Mark Pearce

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2011, 03:43:03 PM »
Jim,

All noted.  However, Craigielaw in but Craighead not?  There's some logic but plenty that defies logic.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jim McCann

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2011, 03:56:38 PM »
Mark

I have the Craighead in my own Scottish Top 100, I much prefer it to its (far) older sibling, the Balcomie.

Another half dozen that maybe should be in the Scottish Top100?

Blairgowrie (Lansdowne), Letham Grange (Old), Peterhead (Old), Forfar, Elgin, Cawder (Cawder).

If these cannot get into the Golf World Tartan Ton then the list is stronger than some might think...
   

Melvyn Morrow

Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2011, 05:42:41 PM »

Jim

Alas you now see why I believe these lists are just pure crap. Let’s stop for a minute and compare our wives -  No,  it just does not work and can be very frustrating for some.

Courses are like our women in that they offer their partner different forms of affection and its down to that individual to react, but only if he is in the mood, not overtired, in a good frame of mind, well so many variables and that just from the golfer. We have not taken into account the Lady (course) and her general apparel i.e. wet T shirt if it’s been raining, hard protrusions pointing through the T shirt due to the cold, early morning dew, well you get my drift.

One’s likes and dislikes are bound up with our moods, the last round we played upon that course, the company and the weather conditions, all cast a very long shadow over events, so throw in a bunch of good guys whose job is to look clinically at the courses and we are going to get wild results, because a round of golf depends upon so much more IMHO.

I have a few pet hates and will not return for a game - they are well up your list.  These lists are
Not worth the time compiling unless you are into marketing then I can see some sense, yet we all know they are internally flawed.

Melvyn


Adrian_Stiff

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2011, 06:17:35 PM »
People like lists, to the minor clubs that are out of the limelight its nice for them to get a double digit number and very important to them financially, equally the top 1000 grading system with the stars was good too.
Overall I think its a good list, no ones "100" is ever going to tally equally, someone said they as soon as they see Turnberry at 1 they shudder, Turnberry is 1 in this, it would be 1 on mine, it would be 1 on many tour players and its 1 on Jim McCanns top100Scottish  site too. That site probably has 85 - 90 common courses in their 100...... so take a look at yourselves when you scowl at this list, it could be your opinion that needs change!!!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2011, 06:51:03 PM »

You may be right, although I do not see myself changing now. Yet the thought that courses are being judged by questionable standards is not going to change my mind. if you feel the system is wrong, how can you one condone these lists.

I suppose it depends if one just makes a living out of the game or if ones soul and spirit is why one plays the game with no financial rewards whatsoever. I suspect that you may have a foot in both camps yet having a spirit thus preferring the latter .

Melvyn

« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 08:44:04 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Kevin Pallier

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2011, 07:19:59 AM »
Adrian

I'd be keen to get your opinion as to how many "World Class" or "truly great" holes would you say Turnberry has ?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2011, 08:28:13 AM »
Kevin - It is an opinion of course, but I think the 1st is relatively dull, 2 is pretty good, 3 is a great hole, 4 is awesome, 5 was pretty good, 6 pretty good, 7 pretty good, 8 a great hole, 9, 10 and 11 awesome, then 12 through to 14 are okay, 15 great hole, 16 great hole, 17 great hole, 18 I would say okay.

My take on others at the top
Hole  St Andrews Muirfield Troon  Prestwick Carnoustie
1       good          good     okay    awesome  great
2       good          great     dull      good        great
3       good          okay      dull      awesome  okay
4       good          good      good   okay         okay
5       awesome    good     good    crap         good
6       good          great     okay     good       awesome
7       great          good     great    good       good
8       okay          good      awesome good    okay
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2011, 08:36:26 AM »
9.   okay     great      okay      okay      okay
10  okay     good       good     good     good
11  great     okay       awesome  good okay
12  okay      great      great   good     good
13  great    awesome* great    great     good
14  awesome great    dull       dull        great
15 good      great      okay     poor     great
16 great     good       okay     okay      okay
17  awesome great    great   awesome poor
18 okay       great     okay       okay      great
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 08:54:40 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Simon Holt

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Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2011, 08:45:28 AM »
Adrian,

Thats an interesting way to compare the courses actually.  Kind of like the alternative vote!  Maybe this is how they should be ranked?!

Its your opinion so you cant be wrong, but in my mind 13 at Muirfield is awesome all day long!  I would have it in my dream 18 which probably has 5 par 3s.

Thanks for sharing.

Simon
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE TOP 100 OF SCOTLAND (Latest Golf World List)
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2011, 08:50:51 AM »
I'm with Simon.  13 at HCEG is as good a par 3 as I've played in Scotland.  Or anywhere else.

But it is interesting how opinions differ.  I think 2 is good but wouldn't have it down as great, I think 5 is as good as 9 and 8 nearly as good as 6.  I also think 11 is better than 12!  Perhaps this is why absolute rankings really don't make sense.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 08:55:17 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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