[David Kelly]

I would be interested to hear what others have to say about Granite Links in Quincy, MA.  In my mind, that is as close to get gets to Doak's definition of a "zero"

I love the copy on Granite Links' website:

Links style courses originated in Scotland, where the game of golf was invented. Links courses were typically built close to the ocean and are known to be sparse of tree and rich in wind. They also characteristically have challenging roughs.

At Granite Links, you’ll find all of these features, but with our own modern day lush interpretations.

Modern day lush interpretations of Scottish golf. That says it all.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Holes 19-27 at Braemar in Edina, MN I would put in the 1 or 2 category.

[Bill Brightly]

I merely scanned the CG and listed some of Tom's 0, 1 and 2's.

Sounds like some of you have never read The Doak Scale.  Here is a synopsis:

0- So contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind. Reserved for courses that wasted a lot of money and probably should not have been built.
1- Very basic golf course with architectural malpractice. Avoid even if desparate for a game.
2- Mediocre golf course with no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. "Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer." (Dave Richards quote.)
3- About the level of average golf course in the world.
4- Modestly interesting.  Also reserved for very good courses too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers.
5- Well above average, good course to play if in the area, don't spend another day away from home to play it.
6_ Very good course, definitely worth a game if in town but not worth a trip to play it.
7- Excellent course, worth checking out if within 100 miles.
8- One of the very best courses in the region, worth a special trip. Could have some drawbacks but will make up for them with something  really special.
9- Outstanding course, certainly one of the best in the world. No weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. See it in your life.
10- Nearly perfect; if you even skipped one hole you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven't seen all the courses in this category, you don't know how good golf architecture can get.

[astavrides]

Thanks for posting those definitions.  With those, I don't think I've ever played a 1.  'Very basic golf course with architectural malpractice'-yes.  'Avoid even if desparate for a game.'-no.  'avoid if a 2 or 3 is 15 minutes further down the road'-yes.

I've probably played plenty of 2's and 0's though.  Notice that a course can be a 0 by that definition, but you can still enjoy playing it once in a while.  Cypress(NLE), ASU, and the Ranch fit that definition for me.

[Tom Yost]

Bill

Pima is closed.  Part of it now is home to the spring training complex for the Diamondbacks and the Rockies.  I'd add the following to the list of 2's in the Phoenix area:

Pima is attributed to WF Bell by C&W. It was not too bad of a layout but suffered from a perpetual lack of maintenance budget. In the early 90's they lost some of the land along Pima Rd. and had to reroute some holes and cram a few new ones in and the course became Pavillion Lakes and went from ok but scruffy to truly awful.  In 2010 the entire thing was plowed under to build the spring training complex.

Bill: I haven't played it but I've heard good things about Golf Club of Scottsdale - what makes it so bad?

There must be another Scottsdale GC or CC, the Golf Club of Scottsdale is a fine course that makes good use of the natural washes and arroyos.

I'm pretty sure the GC Scottsdale came long after the CG was published.  Must be referring to the former Scottsdale CC, now called Starfire.   C&W give LM Hughes the credit.  Arnold Palmer refreshed the course and added 9 holes in the mid-80's.  

The ZERO for Karsten surely reflects the site next to a power plant and the huge power line towers that bisect the course.  

Arizona has its share of Doak 2's

[Ben Kodadek]

East Lake Woodlands South Course, Oldsmar, FL.    Doak 0
East Lake Woodlands North Course, Oldsmar, FL.    Doak 1

These two numbers are interchangeable.   

[Mark Pearce]

Ramside Hall.  Can't decide if it's a 0.  Probably not.  Certainly a 1.

I'd be tempted to give Slaley Hall Hunting, a former European Tour venue, a 1.  It certainly has the architectural malpractice.

[Sean_A]

I think Adrian is right although 3 is probably the average rather than 2.  Even so, how many courses are really below average to the point where one would say it sucks (essentially 0, 1 and maybe 2)?  I don't think we can look at golf courses in terms shit, poor, average, good and excellent.  The worst course I have seen in England is unfortunately the closest to my house - Bidford Grange.  Even with all its faults there is enough there to give it a 2 or 3 on the Doak Scale, but it doesn't matter for me because I won't go back unless its free and for a good reason.  To me, the Doak Scale loses credibility at the high and low end as this is where opinion (or pet peeves/favourite concepts) really take over.  I have seen a lot of rough n' ready munis and I still don't think I have seen anything less than 2-3.  

Ciao

Sean, played Bidford and could certainly give it 0, it truly was awful especially as it was next to Stretford, one of the nicest spots in England! Although since it wasn't a high budget spend and a terrible waste of money maybe 1 might be a truer reflection.

I'd vote for a place neat Doncaster called Owston Hall for 0 but again low budget spend might save it!!

Padraig

Yes, for £12 to go round twice one can't complain too much.  More importantly, why in the hell did you travel to play Bidford?  You must have been given some bum info.

Ciao

Sean, there was an event on in Bidford, was on again the following year, wouldn't go back.

Padraig

You better cross the organizer(s) off your Christmas Card list.  Sounds like we feel tha same about Bidford only I live about four miles away.  The course is nearly always empty - that should be a clue to any prospective customer.  Things are bad enough that the back nine was shut down.  Its amazing how much it has overgrown.  The thing is, despite poor soil, a proper archie could have made a go of that land and produced something of interest to compete in an area of poor courses.  Instead, they had some yayoo no-nothing make a complete pig's ear of the design. 

Ciao

[Mike Tanner]

I played Kiln Creek in Virginia last year in a fundraising tourney. No amount of beer consumption could disguise the abject awfulness of that course.

[Mac Plumart]

GC Of Georgia, Creekside


Bill...I play this course A LOT!!!  Funny.

Why would you do that?

The course may not be good, but the company is.   

[JC Jones]

95% of Florida courses are Doak 0s

[Adrian_Stiff]

95% of Florida courses are Doak 0s

JC - Thats a statement I am sure you dont mean.

[Jud_T]

I think he's attempting to be humorous by referencing a previous thread....

[George Freeman]

Not sure of how low to go on the Doak scale, but if I never see The Bear or Ballybunion Cashen again, it'll be too soon...

Jud - I assume you're talking about the Bear in Traverse City?

[Jud_T]

That would be correct.

[JC Jones]

I think he's attempting to be humorous by referencing a previous thread....

I was serious then and I'm serious now. 

How is your game?  Make sure you send me your sizes so I can pick up the gear in East Lansing before I head north.

[Bill Gayne]

I've played three of the eight zeros listed (Kiln Creek and the two Atlanta courses). The lesser of the three would be Kiln Creek. The develooper took an essentially flat peice of land and inserted lakes. The fill taken out of the new lakes needed to go somewhere so it became the new fairways and mounds for the golf course. The developer then squeezed houses to the edges of the elevated fairways so many balls that hit the fairway run into the backyards. It was originally 36 holes and they allowed the most offensive of the nine holes to grow over and I think they built more houses. The development itself has a long history of financial difficulty but I think after a serious of write downs it's now a viable operation and has been for the last several years. They did build an interesting volcano hole with the excess fill dirt. It's probably my favorite hole out there.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm not certain that Renaissance Park in Charlotte, N.C. is a zero. I went through my photos and was pissed that I was such a bad photographer that day. I actually didn't get to play the course, but I believe that I would have liked to do so. I think about a course like Evergreen or even D-Park in Buffalo, the ones that Dan mentions, and I can't place Renaissance Park in that category. RP is not the most attractive piece of property, nor is it located in the most welcoming section of the city. The course itself can be played along the ground from tee to green for the most part, with only a few forced carries. I just don't see it.

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