[Ivan Lipko]

Hello, dear all!

This thread is slightly OT since this site is dedicated to GCA and I am asking an "anti-GCA" question.

I have played quite a few decent to good golf courses in my life but I think I have never been on something really horrible (except for San Luis Rey Downs which was really boring and non-inspiring but I am not sure where this course really falls in).

So, could you do me a favor and list the Doak 0/1/2 courses in your area so I could play some of them when and if I am there.

Best and thanks in advance,
Ivan

[Dan Herrmann]

Delaware Park GC, in Buffalo NY may be the worst golf course I've ever seen.

[Ronald Montesano]

As a caveat to Dan's comment, I will add that Delaware Park fits into the "Dinner For Schmucks" category. The layout is nothing to write home about, but when you need to carry or tunnel beneath mature trees on 3 par three holes, you come away with a sense of pity and enjoyment. You'll have fun at D-Park, much more than you would at a course where you paid 100 clams to consistently lose golf balls, curse and helicopter clubs.

Since the Olmsted Parks conservatory took over D-Park 4-5 years ago, the conditioning has improved immensely from the Buffalo Parks days.

[Bill Brightly]

Zero
Stone Harbor, NJ
Kiln Creek VA
Renaissance Park, NC
Heather Glen third nine, SC
Atlanta National
GC Of Georgia, Creekside
Karsten at Arizona State
Cypress GC (Perry Dye) CA

One
Gibson Island
American Golfers Club, FL
Indian Creek (lamar Smith) FL
Heatherridge, CO
Hillandale, NY

Two
Black Mountain, NC
Maggie Valley, NC
Beachwood, SC
Hope Plantation, SC
Cane Patch, SC
Brunswick, GA
Oceanside, GA
Fort George Island, FL
Harder Hall, FL
Sugar Loaf, MI
Scalawags, MI
Twin Birch, MI
Kings Crossing, TX
Pima AZ
Scottsdale GC, AZ
Old Del Monte, CA
Wowama, CA

[Bill Seitz]

Cypress, for better or worse, no longer exists.  It might not be the only course on Bill's list that is gone, but it's the one I know of.  And it was a pretty terrible golf course. 

[Paul Jones]

I played Atlanta National when I lived in Alpharetta (6 years ago) and liked the course.  I disagree with it being a Doak 0.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some of the Doak Zero's are quite clearly better than many courses out there. I have never taken much notice of the zero's, I looked at them more as TD saw a lot of flaws in them and felt more they were wasted opportunities rather than ***** courses. Overall I think the book is good but TD gets somethings wrong... Foxhills is probably in the top 1% of successful golf complexes in the UK.

[Paul Jones]

Just to clarify, I have not read Doak's book and just assuming a Doak 0 is a terrible course.

Paul

[Bill_McBride]

Wawona, just outside Yosemite, may be a 2, no argument, but it is a nine holer that is a whole lot of fun to play, well worth a play when at Yosemite.

[Kalen Braley]

"0. A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

1. A very basic golf course, with clear architectural malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid even if you’re desperate for a game.

2. A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed up: “Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer.”

I think few courses are bad enough to be a Doak 0...more often than not they will be a 1.

There is a course in San Jose that fits this bill I think.  It would also seem the course at Sandpines might fit too.

[Jerry Kluger]

Bill: I haven't played it but I've heard good things about Golf Club of Scottsdale - what makes it so bad?

[Dave Givnish]

Bill

Pima is closed.  Part of it now is home to the spring training complex for the Diamondbacks and the Rockies.  I'd add the following to the list of 2's in the Phoenix area:

Tatum Ranch
Terravita - although there are some holes that would make you think "0"
Arrowhead

[Jed Peters]

Huh. I always thought Old Del Monte was better than that. Oh well, what do I know.

[Tim Leahy]

Cypress, for better or worse, no longer exists.  It might not be the only course on Bill's list that is gone, but it's the one I know of.  And it was a pretty terrible golf course. 

If you are dying(pun intended) to play Cypress, we have our own Doak 0 Perry Dye masterpiece here in Sacramento called Bartley Cavanagh. It was built at the same time as Cypress and on land too small for a golf course. I played Cypress when it was open and Bartley is just as bad and very similar design. Bring your hard hat, balls fly over the mounding between the holes constantly and fore is not used enough.

[Shane Wright]

Terradyne in Andover, KS is a Doak 0 and in my opinion, worth seeing and a fun course to play.  I think the back nine is bad, but there are definitely some interesting holes on the front nine.  Although anyone making out to Andover from a different part of the country better be scheduling Prairie Dunes WAY ahead of Terradyne.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill: I haven't played it but I've heard good things about Golf Club of Scottsdale - what makes it so bad?

There must be another Scottsdale GC or CC, the Golf Club of Scottsdale is a fine course that makes good use of the natural washes and arroyos.  I'm not too crazy about the 15th (?) hole, a par 5 that pretty much removes the walkability from an otherwise walkable course with its straight uphill routing.  The club leaves a few carts at the tee for walkers' use.

[Mac Plumart]

GC Of Georgia, Creekside


Bill...I play this course A LOT!!!  Funny.

[John_Cullum]

Bill B

I may have to agree with you that Creekside at GC of GA is at or near 0 under Doak's def.

It is GCA heresy to hold Oceanside in such low regard, but a 2 is about what it deserves. And if criticizing Oceanside is heresy, I think criticizing Brunswick may get you burned at the stake. I have not played Brunswick, but I have stopped and walked around it a little bit. It may be as near to perfectly flat as any course I have ever seen. Most parking lots have more movement

[Peter Ferlicca]

Heritage Eagle Bend Golf Club, in Peoria, CO.  I did a thread on it a couple years ago.  It was the first course I played that struck me as a 0.  It was so contrived it is impossible to think how the designer (who I will leave unnamed) thought a good golf course will come about.  Every hole was either straight uphill to a blind green or straight downhill to a shallow green.  HORRIBLE is an understatement.

[Jud_T]

Not sure of how low to go on the Doak scale, but if I never see The Bear or Ballybunion Cashen again, it'll be too soon...

[John_Cullum]

GC Of Georgia, Creekside


Bill...I play this course A LOT!!!  Funny.

Why would you do that?

[Jason Topp]

Bill: I haven't played it but I've heard good things about Golf Club of Scottsdale - what makes it so bad?

There must be another Scottsdale GC or CC, the Golf Club of Scottsdale is a fine course that makes good use of the natural washes and arroyos.  I'm not too crazy about the 15th (?) hole, a par 5 that pretty much removes the walkability from an otherwise walkable course with its straight uphill routing.  The club leaves a few carts at the tee for walkers' use.

Different course

[Matthew Petersen]

I grew up just a short walk from Heather Ridge in Aurora, CO, and I'd have to say it deserves a "1" rating. It's a tiny little short course squeezed in between condos. The only good news is that you're less likely to be hitting crooked woods into the bordering homes because the course is so short and water-logged that you just want to hit iron off most tees anyway.

[Alex Miller]

I think Carmel Mountain Ranch Golf Club, CA is somewhere between a 0 and a 1.

[Matthew Petersen]

I'm curious as to why Tom gave a "0" to the Karsten course, which (besides Heather Ridge) is the only course I've played multiple times on this list.

Is Karsten a great course? No, but it has a number of interesting holes with strategy and challenge. It's a very manufactured course, in the style of much of what Dye was doing at that point ... but it's better than other Dye offerings in Arizona (though I might find more to like in Ancala and Red Mountain ranch if they weren't so pinched by homes these days), and really given the ground where the course was built something was going to have to be manufactured.

But I guess that's what makes the "0" such an interesting rating. It's probably even more subjective than a 1 or 2, since it implies that there was potential wasted, which is something that's much less obvious to a player, like me, only seeing the course several decades after it was built.

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