[Jay Flemma]

There were two majors held at Bellerive, a U.S. Open won by Gary Player and a PGA won by Nick Price.  I'll echo David Kelly and say that I would have expected a much more prominent venue for the 100th PGA Championship.  There are many courses with more history and with more interesting architecture on top of it!

If there are so many more options, please name another course that would be a significantly better option that would be a more "prominent" venue.

Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Southern Hills, Winged Foot, Shinny, Chicago GC, Riviera...stop me any time...

[PCCraig]

.

[PCCraig]

From an aerial, Bellerive looks like it has been "Rees-ified". Would I be correct?

And what happened to the lake on #17?

Matt:

They took the greenside lake away in the 2006 renovation, opting for a creek only right side hazard.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, did the renovation improve Bellerive?  Also, I wonder if you could give us your top 5 courses in the St. Louis area. 

[PCCraig]

Pat, did the renovation improve Bellerive?  Also, I wonder if you could give us your top 5 courses in the St. Louis area. 

Yes Jim, I think it did. I have a lot more experience with the course post-renovation, but before the work the course had begun to look a bit dated some holes just didn't fit with the rest of the course. Some of the improvements made include an almost brand new hole at #2 replacing a narrow dogleg left short par-4, a much improved tee shot on the once awkward 8th hole, the removal of the lackluster lake on 17, more severe bunkering, and new greens with more movement and strategic interest. Rees completed all the above work without changing the feel of the course or turning it into one of his own designs (both of which he's been known to do).

Off the top of my head, my list of STL courses I've seen would look like this:

STLCC
Bellerive
Boone Valley
Old Warson
Westwood
Algonquin CC
Fox Run
Missouri Bluffs
Glen Echo

[Jay Flemma]

Pat, Southern Hills has hosted eight majors and myriad other USGA events, and is a far...FAR better layout...Bellerive is a little sister to it in every way...

[PCCraig]

.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I lived in St. Louis for the first 37 years of my life until I moved in 2001.  Having caddied, played, worked in bag rooms, & grounds crews at many clubs in St. Louis I can tell you that Bellerive always had a reputation as being a brute of a course, but uninspiring.  The belief was that little strategy was required.  It was just hit a solid decent length drive in the fairway, then hit the green.  There were no situations in which certain angles could give the skilled golfer a better shot at a birdie or par, or where certain approaches needed to be "learned", it was the prototype "everything you need to know is right in front of you", and no advantage to the thinking golfer or to the golfer who had learned the course.

This is not a knock on the course, for it is still a quality test of golf for what it offers.  It is a very good course but not a great course.  It is good enough to host a major, but it then offers the additional necessary factors that some better courses can not offer (i.e. enough room for large galleries and sponsor tents, enough room for parking, enough room for car traffic, etc.)  I do not think any other course in St. Louis offers enough of a test for today's tournament pros without being "tricked-up), other than possibly Fox Run.  (And I repeat I have never seen St. Albans.)

For what a great course St. Louis C. C. is, ignoring all of the logistics, if it hosted a US Open, they would shatter the records for record low scores.  Although if they still had one of the old TV golf head-to-head match-play events, St. Louis C.C. would be a great site for such an event.

I also do not think that Old Warson currently offers hard enough of a test that the USGA and the PGA currently expect from their championships.  But that is likely beyond the point, as the logistics for Old Warson could become very tricky.

Westwood is on the level of St. Louis C.C. per today's pro game.  But the combination of the many uneven lies in conmbination with an excellent routing on that topography makes this a very subtle but great golf course for the excellent amateurs.  When the Missouri State Am was there in the very late 80s it was a fantastic test and a great tournament.

Bill I like your description of Bellerive and explaining how it is good but not great, provides a challenge but lacks subtelty and strategy. Can I steal it and start a thread describing Hazeltine the exact same way?

Having just played with Pat Craig last week and hearing how he likes Hazeltine it makes sense he also likes Bellerive which sounds very similar based on your description Bill.

[Ted Cahill]

Yeah I don't see it either.  If nothing else you would think they would want a more iconic course for the 100th anniversary.

This will mean that in 2018 it will have been 20 years since the PGA Championship was held west of the Rockies.

With the PGA Championship venues in recent years, this event has become a midwest affair.  Fine with me.  In fact, considering the weather patterns in the US in June, I aggree with Geoff Shackelford and propose the US Open become a west coast affair.  Sorry Met area- your rainstorms in June have "dampened" recent US Opens.  OK, now I will duck.....

[Sean Leary]

There aren't many courses on the west coast capable of hosting the PGA Championship, unfortunately. And many of those that are USGA fav's.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I lived in St. Louis for the first 37 years of my life until I moved in 2001.  Having caddied, played, worked in bag rooms, & grounds crews at many clubs in St. Louis I can tell you that Bellerive always had a reputation as being a brute of a course, but uninspiring.  The belief was that little strategy was required.  It was just hit a solid decent length drive in the fairway, then hit the green.  There were no situations in which certain angles could give the skilled golfer a better shot at a birdie or par, or where certain approaches needed to be "learned", it was the prototype "everything you need to know is right in front of you", and no advantage to the thinking golfer or to the golfer who had learned the course.

This is not a knock on the course, for it is still a quality test of golf for what it offers.  It is a very good course but not a great course.  It is good enough to host a major, but it then offers the additional necessary factors that some better courses can not offer (i.e. enough room for large galleries and sponsor tents, enough room for parking, enough room for car traffic, etc.)  I do not think any other course in St. Louis offers enough of a test for today's tournament pros without being "tricked-up), other than possibly Fox Run.  (And I repeat I have never seen St. Albans.)

For what a great course St. Louis C. C. is, ignoring all of the logistics, if it hosted a US Open, they would shatter the records for record low scores.  Although if they still had one of the old TV golf head-to-head match-play events, St. Louis C.C. would be a great site for such an event.

I also do not think that Old Warson currently offers hard enough of a test that the USGA and the PGA currently expect from their championships.  But that is likely beyond the point, as the logistics for Old Warson could become very tricky.

Westwood is on the level of St. Louis C.C. per today's pro game.  But the combination of the many uneven lies in conmbination with an excellent routing on that topography makes this a very subtle but great golf course for the excellent amateurs.  When the Missouri State Am was there in the very late 80s it was a fantastic test and a great tournament.

Bill I like your description of Bellerive and explaining how it is good but not great, provides a challenge but lacks subtelty and strategy. Can I steal it and start a thread describing Hazeltine the exact same way?

Having just played with Pat Craig last week and hearing how he likes Hazeltine it makes sense he also likes Bellerive which sounds very similar based on your description Bill.

Patrick:

My statements are available at full market value.  In other words they are free to be borrowed.

[David Amarnek]

Patrick's and Bill's comments about tough but uninspiring courses also lacking subtlety and strategy would make an interesting new topic.  Which major courses are very good courses like Bellerive and Hazeltine (never played it) but somehow are not great? 

As for Pat Craig's favorites in St. Louis, not too different from my own.  I've never played Fox Run but will shortly and I've only heard very good things about it.  I'd also include Meadowbrook and rank it just above Glen Echo on my list, in part due to conditioning.  Pat, have you played St. Albans?  Highly ranked in Best of State lists but not one of my favorites in town.  Boone Valley is in my top five (#5) and I might rank it higher, except I just can't seem to play well over there, i.e. this past Sarurday!

[PCCraig]

.

[JR Potts]

Pat:

Jay has consistently shown that his "style" of journalism is to bash anything that Rees Jones has ever touched without playing said course on the receiving end of his missives.  When challenged, he will state that he's walked the course.  When further pressed, as you correctly pointed out, he will resort to using other peoples opinion of the course or regurgitating what is written on here.  It's really deep stuff - I can't wait to read what is likely to be a glowing review of Congressional.

Bellerieve seems like a fine course and a good test for the pros.  However, I do have to say that the selection shocked me.

[Terry Lavin]

Sheesh, let's face it, the pros don't play places like St. Louis Country Club.  We all know why.  Just because a course isn't suitable for a gca fanboy outing, doesn't mean that it isn't a perfectly good site for a PGA championship.  Bellerive has hosted plenty of events in its day and I'm sure it will do just fine for the PGA.  After all, at the end of the day, the architecture of the place has little, if anything, to do with whether the championship was good, great or indifferent.

[Jim Franklin]

I am playing in this year's member guest at Bellerive and very much looking forward to it. The pros need a big course withan appropriate infrastructure in order to have a sucessful event. Bellerive has it.

Does it deserve the 100th PGA? Why not. There are not that many top tier courses that can or would want to hold that event. If you are going to do it in St Louis then Bellerive is it.

[Tom Walsh]

"If you are going to do it in St Louis then Bellerive is it."

The only other course with the space and a pedigree is Norwood Hills which hosted a PGA in the 40's won by Ben Hogan and the St. Louis Children's Hospital Golf Classic in the early 70's a couple of times--won by Littler once and Trevino once if memory serves.

Norwood is a really fine 36 holes and a great club but too short for today's ball.

Old Warson -great track, no space
Westwood- I love it! no space
STL CC- the best, no space, too short

etc, etc

I live in St. Louis. They could play it on a dog track muni. I would still come. It will sell out easily.

Bellerive doesn't get a lot of GCA love, but it seems to me it's proven itself (whatever that means) as an excellent venue. US Open, Senior Open, PGA among others.

Pray for good weather.

[David Amarnek]

Pat Craig and others:
If Jay Flemma used my comments for that statement about BCC not even being in St. Louis' top 3 , it is unfortunate for two reasons.  #1 I am certainly not an expert in GCA and never claimed to be!  #2 I never used those words used in the quotations.  

Jim:
Any time I have the opportunity to play Bellerive I am delighted.  As you said (and as I suggested previously), if you are going to hold the PGA or any other men's tour event in the Metro area, Bellerive should be your only choice.   I know that Bellerive will do a magnificent job with the tournament and that St. Louis will support it as strongly as they have done in the past.  

Tom:
I was just about to post the above with a comment on our weather when I see you beat me to the punch!

[PCCraig]

.

[Jeff_Stettner]

St. Louis CC is easily the best course in town, the others all lack the subtlety, nuance and strategic thinking to come close. The interchangeable nature of the others exemplifies the underlying lack of stimulating architecture. I have played every course in town at least twice and I am utterly unable to list the others in any particular order.

As for the layout to hold the championships, it is a excellent test of golf that I personally would find exhausting to play every day. It is, however, the best course in this town to hold the tournament by the same margin that STL CC is in terms of overall interest.

As an aside, I think Westwood, with a ton of work, could approach STL CC. It would require a crew of angry men with chainsaws and a complete gutting of all bunkers and greens (and, to be honest, some removal of tees that were added just for length, not for actual improvement of shot values).

My two cents, all I own.

[Jim Franklin]

I wonder if I can do my practice round at St Louis CC instead of Bellerive?

[David Amarnek]

Jeff,
Agree about SLCC.  I love it.
My twin brother and nephew from Philly came to St. Louis and we played both SLCC and WCC and they enjoyed Westwood more!?  Of course it was well over 100* and we had 100% humidity when we walked St. Louis!
Have you been to Westwood this year?  We had a large number of trees removed over the winter (for me, at least a start!) which is very evident on #4,5,6,8,9,10,13, 15 and 18.  As for gutting the bunkers, I would love to see a change from the flat bottoms and grass flashings on all bunkers, similar to what is over at SLCC.   Strategically, some could certainly be moved.
As for the greens, I actually think they're pretty strong overall.  What are you thinking there?
Thanks.

[Sean Leary]

Sheesh, let's face it, the pros don't play places like St. Louis Country Club.  We all know why.  Just because a course isn't suitable for a gca fanboy outing, doesn't mean that it isn't a perfectly good site for a PGA championship.  Bellerive has hosted plenty of events in its day and I'm sure it will do just fine for the PGA.  After all, at the end of the day, the architecture of the place has little, if anything, to do with whether the championship was good, great or indifferent.

+1.

[Jeff_Stettner]

David,
I will make a point to get out to Westwood soon.

Too many of the greens are elevated and fight the natural landforms. It is not the kind of setting that demands pushed-up sites. I don't have time to write comments on all the holes, so I'll used six as the best example of a manufactured green that fights the natural contours of the hole and rewards the bailout and punishes the aggressive tee shot. And it's blind when it doesn't make sense. There are a lot of these holes out there... Let me know if you ever want to tee it up and discuss. I have family who are members.

[David Amarnek]

Jeff,
Sounds good.
Pat Craig,
Next time your in town, let's play as well.
email: damarnek@gmail.com

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