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David Amarnek

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Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« on: May 07, 2011, 07:31:33 PM »
The PGA just announced that Bellerive CC will be getting the 2013 Sr. PGA and the 100th playing of the PGA Championship in 2018.  Anybody else surprised that the PGA would pick Bellerive as the site of the 100th Championship?  It's in my top 5 in Saint Louis (#4) but....

David Kelly

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 08:10:33 PM »
Yeah I don't see it either.  If nothing else you would think they would want a more iconic course for the 100th anniversary.

This will mean that in 2018 it will have been 20 years since the PGA Championship was held west of the Rockies.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Gary Slatter

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 03:27:54 PM »
I am not surprised.  My wife and I got to play Bellerive a few years ago and were joined by two juniors after a few holes (we caught them).  I was amazed as the two youngsters could explain every hole and even where Gary Player had hit from on many holes.  I thought it was a fine course and look forward to watching in 2013.  Hard to beat history.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 08:38:25 PM »
Gary,

You define history as one playing of a major?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Amarnek

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 09:37:07 PM »
There were two majors held at Bellerive, a U.S. Open won by Gary Player and a PGA won by Nick Price.  I'll echo David Kelly and say that I would have expected a much more prominent venue for the 100th PGA Championship.  There are many courses with more history and with more interesting architecture on top of it!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 09:51:13 PM »
David:

Please name your top 4 in STL.
H.P.S.

David Amarnek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 10:00:35 PM »
Pat:
#1 St. Louis CC
#2 Old Warson CC
#3 Westwood CC
#4 Bellerive CC

Full disclosure, I'm a member at Westwood.


Ronald Montesano

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 07:57:27 AM »
Thanks, David. That does add a bit more history to the site. I can't imagine that the PGAOA didn't have its run of sites to select from, so I gather that it wight with to develop something with Bellerive as a midwest anchor.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 08:38:59 AM »
Gary,

You define history as one playing of a major?

Bellerive has a fine championship history:

1965 U.S. Open (won by Gary Player)
1981 Mid-Amateur (Inaugural event)
1992 PGA Championship (won by Nick Price)
1999 Mid Amateur (Co-host)
2001 WGC-AMEX (Canceled due to 9/11)
2004 U.S. Senior Open (won by Peter Jacobson)
2008 BMW Championship (won by Camilo Villegas)

That's just since the club moved the course to it's current location in 1960. Their previous course hosted the 1949 Western Amateur and 1954 Western Open, then a major.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 08:41:14 AM »
There were two majors held at Bellerive, a U.S. Open won by Gary Player and a PGA won by Nick Price.  I'll echo David Kelly and say that I would have expected a much more prominent venue for the 100th PGA Championship.  There are many courses with more history and with more interesting architecture on top of it!

If there are so many more options, please name another course that would be a significantly better option that would be a more "prominent" venue.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 08:45:42 AM »
Pat:
#1 St. Louis CC
#2 Old Warson CC
#3 Westwood CC
#4 Bellerive CC

Full disclosure, I'm a member at Westwood.

David:

I understand your pick of STLCC as the best course in the metro STL area, but Old Warson and Westwood better than Bellerive? Please.

Your bias in putting Westwood CC as #3 in all of STL is obvious. I'd love to hear why you think Old Warson is that much better than Bellerive.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 08:47:41 AM by Pat_Craig »
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 09:08:34 AM »
The city of St. Louis and Bellerive CC are very deserving of being chosen for the 2018 PGA Championship (and 2013 Senior PGA). The area has long supported championship and amatuer golf from a fundemental level. Here are just the USGA events that St. Louis has held (from another thread):

These are the USGA championships that have been played in the St. Louis Area:

2 US Opens: 1947- St. Louis CC   &   1965- Bellerive CC
2 US Am: 1921 & 1960- St. Louis CC
3 US Women's Ams: 1925 & 1972- St. Louis CC   &   2009- Old Warson CC
2 US Mid Ams: 1981 (the first USGA MidAm)- Bellerive CC   &   1999- Old Warson CC
1 US Women's Mid-Am: 2001- Fox Run CC
2 USGA Publinks: 1929- Forest Park GC   &   1999- Spencer T. Olin (in Alton, Ill)
1 USGA Women's Publinks: 1996- Spencer T. Olin
1 US Junior: 2007- Boone Valley CC
1 US Senior Open: 2004- Bellerive CC
1 US Senior Am: 2001- Norwood Hills CC
1 USGA State Team: 2009- CC of St. Albans

So 9 area courses have hosted (or will host) USGA chmapionships: St. Louis CC, Bellerive, Old Warson, Fox Run, Norwood Hills, Boone Valley, Spencer T. Olin, St. Albans, & Forest Park.

Also, 9 USGA championships in a 14 year span.

Bellerive in particular has been the choice for professional golf in in STL, and after 2018 it will of hosted every rotational American major championship (US Open, US Senior Open, PGA Championship, Senior PGA Championship, Western Open) as well as two top tier PGA Tour events in the past 10 years.

Logistically the course is perfect for hosting a major tournament, with significant space available for parking, tents, etc... thanks to the large farm/ranch next door, a major airport nearby, and a private airfield just down the road.

The golf course is very good and has been ranked in the top 100 golf courses in the country for most of its existance, currently sitting at #79 on GOLF Magazine's top 100. It can play up to 7,500 yards with a par of 70 and features some real significant interest in its design.

And still, you get boneheaded comments like this:

Yeah I don't see it either.  If nothing else you would think they would want a more iconic course for the 100th anniversary.

This will mean that in 2018 it will have been 20 years since the PGA Championship was held west of the Rockies.

As I said to David above, name some golf courses that would be "iconic" and a better fit for the 2018 event.
H.P.S.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 11:22:16 AM »
When I think of the U.S. Open, I think very quickly of Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Olympic, Bethpage....

When I think of the PGA, I think of . . . . hmmmm, it's coming . . . . Medinah (b/c of Tiger v. Sergio) and Whistling Straits.  Given that the PGA doesn't have a particular course or courses associated with it, perhaps Bellerive is as good a choice as any.

Gary Slatter

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2011, 12:21:08 PM »
Gary,

You define history as one playing of a major?
A lot of courses have never had a major.  My life does not revolve around majors anyway, there are only two that really count, the two Opens.
Too bad about the Sabres, again. :)
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

David Amarnek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 12:37:22 PM »
Pat,
I agree that St. Louis deserves and has clearly demonstrated support of championship golf in the past.  Bellerive is, no doubt, the best venue for championship golf in our Metro area.  I simply felt that it was a curious choice for the centennial playing of the PGA.  
You asked me for my top 4 in St. Louis and I gave it to you.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so please, don't decry my choices just because they differ from yours.  I will say that I am in the minority in town when I put Bellerive below Westwood and possibly Old Warson as well.   So?
I do know first-hand from talking with some pros (at the recent BMW), among others, that Bellerive was rather repetitive and not very interesting.  
As for what other courses would be better suited to such a high-profile anniversary event, I wouldn't want to give you a list as I am not interested in convincing you of anything.  Not that I am a big believer in rankings, but your comment re. BCC being in the #79 position in Golf Magazine's list suggests at least 78 other courses may be more deserving.

Ronald,
I agree with your comments.

Carl,
You may be correct.


PCCraig

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 12:50:02 PM »
Thanks, David. That does add a bit more history to the site. I can't imagine that the PGAOA didn't have its run of sites to select from, so I gather that it wight with to develop something with Bellerive as a midwest anchor.

Considering the PGA has strong relationships with both Medinah and Hazeltine, I doubt this is the case. If anything, the PGA shows more interest in the parts of the country that the USGA tends to ignore.
H.P.S.

David Amarnek

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 01:01:48 PM »
Pat,
Good points there!
I must point out that Ronald said "a" Midwest anchor and not "the" Midwest anchor.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2011, 01:08:01 PM »
Pat,
I agree that St. Louis deserves and has clearly demonstrated support of championship golf in the past.  Bellerive is, no doubt, the best venue for championship golf in our Metro area.  I simply felt that it was a curious choice for the centennial playing of the PGA.  
You asked me for my top 4 in St. Louis and I gave it to you.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so please, don't decry my choices just because they differ from yours.  I will say that I am in the minority in town when I put Bellerive below Westwood and possibly Old Warson as well.   So?
I do know first-hand from talking with some pros (at the recent BMW), among others, that Bellerive was rather repetitive and not very interesting.  
As for what other courses would be better suited to such a high-profile anniversary event, I wouldn't want to give you a list as I am not interested in convincing you of anything.  Not that I am a big believer in rankings, but your comment re. BCC being in the #79 position in Golf Magazine's list suggests at least 78 other courses may be more deserving.

David,

If you're going to make comments like:

Anybody else surprised that the PGA would pick Bellerive as the site of the 100th Championship?  It's in my top 5 in Saint Louis (#4) but....

I'll echo David Kelly and say that I would have expected a much more prominent venue for the 100th PGA Championship.  There are many courses with more history and with more interesting architecture on top of it!

You should be able to back them up. Quite frankly your opinion is useless unless you can explain why you think Old Warson and Westwood are better than Bellerive. Also the comment "I do know first-hand from talking with some pros (at the recent BMW), among others, that Bellerive was rather repetitive and not very interesting" is nothing but a blind knock on a golf course with no grounding in reality.

This is a discussion board. Discuss and back up your opinions. Otherwise you're just mindlessly badmouthing a neighboring club.
H.P.S.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2011, 01:09:21 PM »
Pat:
#1 St. Louis CC
#2 Old Warson CC
#3 Westwood CC
#4 Bellerive CC

Full disclosure, I'm a member at Westwood.

David:

I understand your pick of STLCC as the best course in the metro STL area, but Old Warson and Westwood better than Bellerive? Please.

Your bias in putting Westwood CC as #3 in all of STL is obvious. I'd love to hear why you think Old Warson is that much better than Bellerive.

I have St. Louis C.C. and then Westwood as my choices for #1 & #2 in St. Louis.  I would then consider Bellerive, Old Warson, & Fox Run as being anywhere between #3 to #5.  Unfortunately I have never been to St. Albans so I do not know if it would enter my top 5.  (Although I would be very surprised if could replace St. Louis C.C. as the best course in St. Louis per my opinion.)
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2011, 01:30:00 PM »
Pat,
I agree that St. Louis deserves and has clearly demonstrated support of championship golf in the past.  Bellerive is, no doubt, the best venue for championship golf in our Metro area.  I simply felt that it was a curious choice for the centennial playing of the PGA.  
You asked me for my top 4 in St. Louis and I gave it to you.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so please, don't decry my choices just because they differ from yours.  I will say that I am in the minority in town when I put Bellerive below Westwood and possibly Old Warson as well.   So?
I do know first-hand from talking with some pros (at the recent BMW), among others, that Bellerive was rather repetitive and not very interesting.  
As for what other courses would be better suited to such a high-profile anniversary event, I wouldn't want to give you a list as I am not interested in convincing you of anything.  Not that I am a big believer in rankings, but your comment re. BCC being in the #79 position in Golf Magazine's list suggests at least 78 other courses may be more deserving.

David,

If you're going to make comments like:

Anybody else surprised that the PGA would pick Bellerive as the site of the 100th Championship?  It's in my top 5 in Saint Louis (#4) but....

I'll echo David Kelly and say that I would have expected a much more prominent venue for the 100th PGA Championship.  There are many courses with more history and with more interesting architecture on top of it!

You should be able to back them up. Quite frankly your opinion is useless unless you can explain why you think Old Warson and Westwood are better than Bellerive. Also the comment "I do know first-hand from talking with some pros (at the recent BMW), among others, that Bellerive was rather repetitive and not very interesting" is nothing but a blind knock on a golf course with no grounding in reality.

This is a discussion board. Discuss and back up your opinions. Otherwise you're just mindlessly badmouthing a neighboring club.

I lived in St. Louis for the first 37 years of my life until I moved in 2001.  Having caddied, played, worked in bag rooms, & grounds crews at many clubs in St. Louis I can tell you that Bellerive always had a reputation as being a brute of a course, but uninspiring.  The belief was that little strategy was required.  It was just hit a solid decent length drive in the fairway, then hit the green.  There were no situations in which certain angles could give the skilled golfer a better shot at a birdie or par, or where certain approaches needed to be "learned", it was the prototype "everything you need to know is right in front of you", and no advantage to the thinking golfer or to the golfer who had learned the course.

This is not a knock on the course, for it is still a quality test of golf for what it offers.  It is a very good course but not a great course.  It is good enough to host a major, but it then offers the additional necessary factors that some better courses can not offer (i.e. enough room for large galleries and sponsor tents, enough room for parking, enough room for car traffic, etc.)  I do not think any other course in St. Louis offers enough of a test for today's tournament pros without being "tricked-up), other than possibly Fox Run.  (And I repeat I have never seen St. Albans.)

For what a great course St. Louis C. C. is, ignoring all of the logistics, if it hosted a US Open, they would shatter the records for record low scores.  Although if they still had one of the old TV golf head-to-head match-play events, St. Louis C.C. would be a great site for such an event.

I also do not think that Old Warson currently offers hard enough of a test that the USGA and the PGA currently expect from their championships.  But that is likely beyond the point, as the logistics for Old Warson could become very tricky.

Westwood is on the level of St. Louis C.C. per today's pro game.  But the combination of the many uneven lies in conmbination with an excellent routing on that topography makes this a very subtle but great golf course for the excellent amateurs.  When the Missouri State Am was there in the very late 80s it was a fantastic test and a great tournament.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 01:35:05 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

David Amarnek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2011, 01:50:04 PM »
Pat,
With respect, let's discuss.
The point of my topic was simply that it was surprising to me that the PGA would select Bellerive as the site of their centennial championship.  
I in no way badmouthed a club that I respect a great deal and among whose membership I would count a number of good friends.  To be clear, it is a wonderful club and fine course.
My comments about what some pros said of BCC was simply that, I never said that I shared that opinion.
You asked me to explain why Westwood and Old Warson are better than Bellerive.  
First, I was merely giving my opinion on what courses I prefer to play, hence my ranking.  
Second, I admitted that my opinion was in the minority in St. Louis.  
Third, you felt the need to point out my obvious bias with Westwood when I earlier alluded to that with my response to your initial question.
Fourth, just because you require me to detail why I hold Old Warson and Westwood above Bellerive doesn't mean that I have to, especially in light of your tone.  The tangent which this represents distracts from my point in wondering why another course was not chosen over Bellerive for the 100th playing of the PGA.  
If you think what I posted is useless and mindless, I can live with that.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2011, 02:16:37 PM »
Pat,
With respect, let's discuss.
The point of my topic was simply that it was surprising to me that the PGA would select Bellerive as the site of their centennial championship.  
I in no way badmouthed a club that I respect a great deal and among whose membership I would count a number of good friends.  To be clear, it is a wonderful club and fine course.
My comments about what some pros said of BCC was simply that, I never said that I shared that opinion.
You asked me to explain why Westwood and Old Warson are better than Bellerive.  
First, I was merely giving my opinion on what courses I prefer to play, hence my ranking.  
Second, I admitted that my opinion was in the minority in St. Louis.  
Third, you felt the need to point out my obvious bias with Westwood when I earlier alluded to that with my response to your initial question.
Fourth, just because you require me to detail why I hold Old Warson and Westwood above Bellerive doesn't mean that I have to, especially in light of your tone.  The tangent which this represents distracts from my point in wondering why another course was not chosen over Bellerive for the 100th playing of the PGA.  
If you think what I posted is useless and mindless, I can live with that.


David:

If you think "St. Louis deserves and has clearly demonstrated support of championship golf in the past," "Bellerive is, no doubt, the best venue for championship golf in our Metro area," and Bellerive "is a wonderful club and fine course" then why are you "surprised" and "curious" that the PGA would award Bellerive the PGA?

When you say this:
The tangent which this represents distracts from my point in wondering why another course was not chosen over Bellerive for the 100th playing of the PGA. 

I'd just like to know what golf course you think can logistically host, and deserves the PGA, more than Bellerive.
H.P.S.

David Amarnek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2011, 02:38:50 PM »
Pat,
Sorry if I haven't made myself more clear. 
The nuance I'm hoping to bring to the discussion is not if Bellerive deserves a PGA Championship (as I believe it does) but rather, if it deserves to be the site of the 100th playing of the event.  To me, this represents a significant anniversary which perhaps would suggest a more well-regarded venue.  Perhaps not, as obviously my take on it differs from the PGA and no doubt a number of others as well.
I do believe that Bill Shamleffer echoes my sentiments about BCC very well, i.e. not a great course, but very good indeed.
Your take on the PGA's interest in the Midwest and avoiding areas frequented by the USGA may be spot on and explain why Bellerive may have been their choice.

Jim Nugent

Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2011, 03:37:08 PM »
In 1965 I attended every day of the U.S. Open, including practice rounds and playoff, except for Friday.  I was 13 years old and lived/grew up in St. Louis.  Knowing next to nothing about golf courses, I reacted much the same as David and Bill did to Bellerive.   It left me vaguely unsatisfied.  Long and tough, for sure.  But neither the individual holes nor the layout stood out to me.  Seemed like the stereotype of an RTJ championship course.  I played the course 4 or 5 years later and had much the same reaction.

Westwood was a different matter altogether.  In 1966, a year after seeing Bellerive, I caddied for the pro from my muni (Ruth Park) at a pro-am at Westwood.  Absolutely loved the course.  Same reaction when I played it several years later.  Had the character I felt Bellerive lacked. 

This was over 40 years ago.  Perhaps my perspective now would change.  It sure looks like Bellerive has changed.  It was mostly wide open back then, but now looks pretty heavily treed, at least in comparison. 

40 years ago my top two St. Louis courses were St. Louis CC and Westwood.  Bellerive was not close to them IMO back then.  Real interested to hear how people who have played both courses feel about them.   

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2011, 04:02:34 PM »
From an aerial, Bellerive looks like it has been "Rees-ified". Would I be correct?

And what happened to the lake on #17?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

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