Pedigree and GCA

[Mike_Young]

While reading the thread re Rees Jones and minimalist...
When the buyer of a service or product is ignorant as to what constitutes the product or service then pedigree or notoriety will win out almost every time.
That has always been the case in golf course architecture because 95 percent of the buyers have no clue what they are getting....especially when the buyer is a committee such as the USGA or a club....

The key to better golf courses is not the architects but knowledgeable decision makers....and in most cases the decision is made based on politics not talent....  recently it seems there has been a trend away from this pattern....

[Benny Hillard]

Mike,

How do you think the members of clubs and committee's can be better educated?
Or how do we get better decision makers on said committees?

Benny

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

How do you think the members of clubs and committee's can be better educated?
Or how do we get better decision makers on said committees?

Benny

You can't.  they have to want it as an individual.  A form of Jock sniffing is dominate in most of these cases....in the last 25 years many a development had the architect chosen by a 38 year old VP of Marketing who wanted to tell his buddies he went bird hunting with Jack or called Jack for lunch....same for boards....THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THEY DON'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THE CLUB'S ARCHITECTURE TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE OR SPEND THE TIME LEARNING....  recently I have been listening to our golf pro tell how our club redo shaper shaped Tiger Woods home greens....WOW...but the fact is that has impressed our committee and golf pro so much that actual ability or results don't matter..plus they couldn't tell the difference...

The biggest problem is arrogance from good players....they will know more about it than any architect....  It seems to be the only sport where knowledge of the playing fields is dominated by the participants...you would not dare sit in the top deck of a stadium designed by Derrick Geter or Herschel Walker would you....nor would the committee hire such...

[michael damico]

Mike,

How do you think the members of clubs and committee's can be better educated?
Or how do we get better decision makers on said committees?

Benny

I think it's a matter of time. Once this generation (baby boomers) have moved on to the course in the sky, the next generation will have already been publicly subjected to 'minimalist' design on the national level (between the mix of future opens - Chambers, the new(old) Pinehurst, etc) most barriers should have been breached. It will be on their mind to have a course look like No. 2 instead of Augusta.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

How do you think the members of clubs and committee's can be better educated?
Or how do we get better decision makers on said committees?

Benny

I think it's a matter of time. Once this generation (baby boomers) have moved on to the course in the sky, the next generation will have already been publicly subjected to 'minimalist' design on the national level (between the mix of future opens - Chambers, the new(old) Pinehurst, etc) most barriers should have been breached. It will be on their mind to have a course look like No. 2 instead of Augusta.

Michael,
I don't about that....
1500 guys on a minimalist website does not mean it is taking the golf world by storm....
Chamber sis not minimalist...
And it will be interesting to see how long Pinehurst keeps the present look...
I played with three 40 year old last week at Palmetto club and Sage....which do you think was their fav....
All i hear from clubs is " the minimalist stuff is nice but that's just not us"  and that is the younger guys...

[Benny Hillard]

Unfortunately I have to agree with you mike,

It is a sad thought for the future of this industry.
Hopefully there will be a movement among the players towards great architecture 

[Ben Voelker]

Most golfers don't care that much about architecture unfortunately, which always surprises me because the uniqueness of each course attracted me and kept me playing this game.

I played with a college golfer today in the midwest who had never heard of Bandon Dunes and that was not the first time something similar has happened.  Further, he seemed quite excited that his buddy was getting to head to Minnesota to work on the grounds crew of a Palmer course.  Name recognition means everything, which I suppose is a good part of the reason guys like Nicklaus and Palmer do so well, not to take anything away from them.

[Richard Choi]

Mike, how is this any different than 99% of the industries out there?

I think I became an adult the day I realized that "who you know" is more important than "what you know".

[Garland Bayley]

I went to a green committee meeting (they insist on calling themselves the greens committee) at my club and showed them a Google Earth shot of the Road Hole predominately featuring the Old Course Hotel and the drive across the drying sheds. Only one person in the room hand the slightest clue about what they were seeing. That was the super. The inmates are running the asylum (which I think is what is Mike's point.)

[Peter Pallotta]

reminds me of the scene in 'it's a wonderful life' when a broken-down george bailey tells his gaurdian angel what he really needs, i.e.
"you wouldn't happen to have 10 thousand bucks, would you?"
"ohh, oh no - we don't use money in heaven"
"no, huh? well, it comes in pretty handy down here, bud. took me a long time to realize that"

and it took me a long time to realize that most don't choose a particular architect (or lawyer or hollywood star) in spite of the high costs/fees but preciely because of them.

everybody wants to feel like a big shot - especially 38 year old guys with fancy titles and leased BMWs.

[Kalen Braley]

Like I've said before.

You can take almost any product/niche/service in life and there will be an equivilant of a "GCA.com" for it.

I don't mind driving my old Honda Accord around, but I'm sure there is a niche group, or groups, around who will claim its mainstream thoughtless, car design with inferior components and overall deterimental to the car industry.  I could give a rip about that and will continue to be a proud owner.

As a beer snob myself I'm sure there are plenty on this board who think MGD, Coors Light, Schlitz, Bud Select, Beck, Henieken, etc, etc is the cats meow.  As for me, I wouldn't touch the stuff with a 10 foot pole....and I always turn it down even when offered for free.

Same is true for GCA.com.....we in turn reject the majority 99% of the "Honda Accord and crappy beer drinkers" of the golf world.

[Bill_McBride]

I played with three 40 year old last week at Palmetto club and Sage....which do you think was their fav....
All i hear from clubs is " the minimalist stuff is nice but that's just not us"  and that is the younger guys...

Just a wild guess.......not Palmetto?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I've had this argument with that idiot-savant, TEPaul for over a decade.

I've always maintained that it's the visionary developer that's the key to the project since he selects the architect and has a vision for the project of his dreams.  He blends that vision, his dream, with the architect that can best fulfill that dream.  And that usually produces an extraordinary product.

TEPaul still thinks that the key to the project is the night watchman, since he carefully monitors the night watchman's patrol regimen at HappyDale Farms in order to deterimine the best time to attempt his breakout and getaway.

[mike_beene]

kalen,I love my 8 year old Honda Accord.The neighbors and my wife don't care for it.Best was the valet at Dallas Country Club:"What kind of car is this?"She goes on to say she knows pickups from living in the country and Aston Martins and Mercedes,but doesn't get a lot of these hondas or hundais or whatever they are.Now my wife won't let me take the Honda to country clubs.

[Kalen Braley]

kalen,I love my 8 year old Honda Accord.The neighbors and my wife don't care for it.Best was the valet at Dallas Country Club:"What kind of car is this?"She goes on to say she knows pickups from living in the country and Aston Martins and Mercedes,but doesn't get a lot of these hondas or hundais or whatever they are.Now my wife won't let me take the Honda to country clubs.

But of course.  She would be deeply shamed if her hubbie had the gall to show up in such a "commoners" car! 

[David Harshbarger]

kalen,I love my 8 year old Honda Accord.The neighbors and my wife don't care for it.Best was the valet at Dallas Country Club:"What kind of car is this?"She goes on to say she knows pickups from living in the country and Aston Martins and Mercedes,but doesn't get a lot of these hondas or hundais or whatever they are.Now my wife won't let me take the Honda to country clubs.

I fixed that problem with my 2 year old Honda Civic....traded it in for Mustang.  American Muscle, welcome everywhere.