Prairie Dunes is the real deal

[Chris Cupit]

I just returned from an incredible trip to Praire Dunes.  Despite some travel issues (Delta sucks--and I am an Atlanta homer), it was a great couple days of golf.  Thanks  to Delta I missed Friday golf although with steady 42 mile per hour winds and gusts of 61!!, I am not sure I missed any "playable" golf.

The next two days was 54 holes of simply incredible golf.  I am not a picture taker since I am there to play but here are a few impressions:

Obviously, Maxwell found a portion of Kansas that is not flat.  The huge natural dunes and sandy soil were hard to believe.  You would walk up over a massive dune truly expecting to see an ocean on the other side when you could hardly be farther away.

The greens were borderline frightening.  Absolutely some of the most interesting, bold, demanding greens I have ever seen.  What really struck me was how severe and yet playable they were.  

The routing of the second nine by Maxwell's son flowed seemlessly.  I think most (certainly including me) would be hard pressed to point out the original nine holes versus the second nine added by Press.  The second nine was integrated into the middle of the existing nine so that makes it harder but I can't imagine a better integration of a second nine by a different person than this.

The elvation changes were amazing particularly the second shot into hole #8.  Also, I never hit so many 4-irons into "165" yard par threes in my life and the 17th green is an absolute gem.

I'd love to hear any thoughts but I was completely smitten

Oh, and they serve Jagermeister.    

[Sean Leary]

Glad you liked it. Which wind did you get and what was the temp? I know you are really good, so curious how difficult it was for you. I have not played a course where length means less than PD and can test really good players at 6700 yards.

[JMEvensky]

I,too,would like to hear more of your impressions.

After playing Southern Hills,of all the courses on my bucket list,Prairie Dunes has always been near the top.

[Shane Wright]

Chris,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Bottom line, IMHO, Prairie Dunes is awesome.  There are days I wake up and think it is my favorite course I've ever played.  It definitely has the most interesting greens I've seen.  And the par 3's are nothing short of magnificent.  

The only consistent criticism I have heard from others is that it is too penal outside of the fairways.  I'm not sure I agree with this simply because I believe the course offers enough width for the yardage.  It "feels" way more narrow than it actually plays.

It is such a fun walk with the tees right next to the previous green, yet each hole has an isolation feel because of the dunes and rolling topography.  

But never enough can be said about the greens!  They are that good.  

Although it only has two par 5's, they are two really good ones.  If I had to say there is somewhat of a weak hole, I would choose #14 simply because of it's similarity to #3 and I like #3 better.  

But I would treasure any opportunity to play Prairie Dunes! It is hard to beat the fun factor at Maxwell's gem.

[Chris Cupit]

I too had heard how penal PD can be and the "gunch" certainly can be.  However, the area from "gunch to gunch" is very fair and even with the wind I would never say the fairways are narrow.  I shot a frickin million and hit it all over the map with my driver but there is plenty of room if you are hitting it solid.

I see your point on #14 although teeing off through "the chute" was a bit of a differentiator for me.

As people can tell, it is hard to find much bad to say about PD

[Sean Leary]

Kyle told me you played it with the north wind which is definitely the harder wind imo. Too bad you didn't play it with the south wind, which is the prevailing wind...

And yes I am well aware of the fact they serve Jager:)

I am one who wishes the gunsch was more where you could find your ball, that is all, like Ballyneal.

[Shane Wright]

If you can shoot a frickin million and come away smitten like you are, that probably tells you all you need to know about Prairie Dunes. 

[Pete Lavallee]

Sean,

Do they ever burn the gunch, similar to what they do to the wooga at Wld Horse?

[Chris Cupit]

Glad you liked it. Which wind did you get and what was the temp? I know you are really good, so curious how difficult it was for you. I have not played a course where length means less than PD and can test really good players at 6700 yards.

Weather was great and a bit breezy.  I'd say 20-25 mile an hour winds in the morning that lightened in the afternoon.  We played the blues at around 6500 which was plenty of course.  Par five 7th was straight into the wind and I played hybrid, three iron and wedge on the 480 yard hole.  #17 was downwind and about 480 and I had 134 for my second shot (nice par ).  The wind was clearly a factor.  I really did struggle off the tee and I am guessing my scores were 85, 79 and a Jager induced 87 on Sunday where I somehow started the round with three solid pars.

I circle back and bore people with a brief hole by hole later.  I'd love to hear other impressions.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Do they ever burn the gunch, similar to what they do to the wooga at Wld Horse?

Hi Pete,

They do but it grows back so fast as it is native. It is wild though, right after they do it because you see hundred upon hundreds of half burned golf balls.

They do what they can within budget to keep the gunch as playable as possible, but it eats balls. After a while you learn distances so you can often find them but there are other times that you can see exactly where it went and can't find it.

As a stroke play course, disaster is one shot away, and for mainly that reason, it keeps it out of the very upper echelon of courses in the world, IMO.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

Is the gunch marked with red stakes, or is it re-load on the tee?

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Is the gunch marked with red stakes, or is it re-load on the tee?

Reload. I seem to hit a lot that go just in, so I reload in case I can't find it.  Which seems to be a lot.

Many here don't agree, but on certain holes, having rough lines that look a bit too narrow actually helps some balls stay in play and out of the tall stuff. They  keep the rough pretty short so it isn't a huge penalty of you are in the primary rough.

For me,  a decent but not scratch player, it is harder than a lot of courses purported to be really hard (Pine Valley for example). I have not broken 80 since about my seventh round there, 50ish rounds ago. The course just seems to come up and bite me, and now some of it is mental because I know it is coming.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

Is the gunch marked with red stakes, or is it re-load on the tee?

Reload. I seem to hit a lot that go just in, so I reload in case I can't find it.

Many here don't agree, but on certain holes, having rough lines that look a bit too narrow actually helps some balls stay in play and out of the tall stuff. They  keep the rough pretty short so it isn't a hug penalty of you are in the primary rough.

For me,  a decent but not scratch player, it is harder than a lot of courses purported to be really hard (Pine Valley for example). I have not broken 80 since about my seventh round there, 50ish rounds ago. The course just seems to come up and bite me, and now some of it is mental because I know it is coming.

Interesting Sean,

Have they thought about extending out the boundaries of the gunch area...or would that be too prohibitive in terms of cost for man power and time in the saddle on the mowers?

I've seen multiple course reviews and I've always loved the wild look of the place and how the course seems to blend in so well with its environs.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Sean,

Is the gunch marked with red stakes, or is it re-load on the tee?

Reload. I seem to hit a lot that go just in, so I reload in case I can't find it.

Many here don't agree, but on certain holes, having rough lines that look a bit too narrow actually helps some balls stay in play and out of the tall stuff. They  keep the rough pretty short so it isn't a hug penalty of you are in the primary rough.

For me,  a decent but not scratch player, it is harder than a lot of courses purported to be really hard (Pine Valley for example). I have not broken 80 since about my seventh round there, 50ish rounds ago. The course just seems to come up and bite me, and now some of it is mental because I know it is coming.

Interesting Sean,

Have they thought about extending out the boundaries of the gunch area...or would that be too prohibitive in terms of cost for man power and time in the saddle on the mowers?

I've seen multiple course reviews and I've always loved the wild look of the place and how the course seems to blend in so well with its environs.

I don't think that I would mess with the boundaries.  I think they are fair and strategic where they are now.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Is the gunch marked with red stakes, or is it re-load on the tee?

Reload. I seem to hit a lot that go just in, so I reload in case I can't find it.

Many here don't agree, but on certain holes, having rough lines that look a bit too narrow actually helps some balls stay in play and out of the tall stuff. They  keep the rough pretty short so it isn't a hug penalty of you are in the primary rough.

For me,  a decent but not scratch player, it is harder than a lot of courses purported to be really hard (Pine Valley for example). I have not broken 80 since about my seventh round there, 50ish rounds ago. The course just seems to come up and bite me, and now some of it is mental because I know it is coming.

Interesting Sean,

Have they thought about extending out the boundaries of the gunch area...or would that be too prohibitive in terms of cost for man power and time in the saddle on the mowers?

I've seen multiple course reviews and I've always loved the wild look of the place and how the course seems to blend in so well with its environs.

They have extended some a bit, for example on the right side of the 5th hole, and on the right side of 13 where they added bunkers to catch balls from going in. In terms of blending with is environs I agree. Unfortunately my balls blend in with the gunch as well

Again, the corridors are pretty big so in a perfect world, it isn't that they widen the corridors, its that they make the gunch more playable and have balls findable. But it is not cost effective to do that as often/much as it would take to keep it playable.

[David Kelly]

For a little bit after the 2006 Senior Open I thought the rough corridors were a little tighter than they should be but they seem back to normal now.

I think first time players are actually surprised how much room there is out there.

[Sean Leary]

For a little bit after the 2006 Senior Open I thought the rough corridors were a little tighter than they should be but they seem back to normal now.

I think first time players are actually surprised how much room there is out there.

Rough or Gunch corridors, DK?

[David Kelly]

Sean,

My bad, I was talking about the rough corridors, and I think they kept it a little higher for awhile but it is back to normal now.

Like you said it is probably cost prohibitive to cut back gunch areas and keep them cut back.  I know they spend a lot already on burning gunch areas and going through and killing cottonwood saplings.  In a perfect world most of the balls in the gunch would be recoverable.

If they did cut back one area I would vote for the right side landing area on #18. 

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

My bad, I was talking about the rough corridors, and I think they kept it a little higher for awhile but it is back to normal now.

Like you said it is probably cost prohibitive to cut back gunch areas and keep them cut back.  I know they spend a lot already on burning gunch areas and going through and killing cottonwood saplings.  In a perfect world most of the balls in the gunch would be recoverable.

If they did cut back one area I would vote for the right side landing area on #18. 

Agreed, that would be one spot that would help. I would like to see that area right on 12 after that strip of rough, 225 out or so> Just take that tuft of gunch out, because it would improve 13 as well. Know where I mean?

In terms of making the actual fairways wider, to me the only REALLY glaring one is 17. As you get closer to the green, it is too narrow. Other than that hole I am OK with the widths of the fairways, Mucci be damned

[David Kelly]

Agreed, that would be one spot that would help. I would like to see that area right on 12 after that strip of rough, 225 out or so> Just take that tuft of gunch out, because it would improve 13 as well. Know where I mean?

In terms of making the actual fairways wider, to me the only REALLY glaring one is 17. As you get closer to the green, it is too narrow. Other than that hole I am OK with the widths of the fairways, Mucci be damned

Yes, that area between 12 & 13 is kind of a double jeopardy for players who hit it there on 12.  They already have the cottonwoods to deal with and a lost ball seems kind of cruel, especially since you can't see the ball land there. 

As for #17 I disagree, I love the vanishing point aspect of the fairway because it really makes you execute a shot on the lay up. 

[Sean Leary]

I don't disagree with your thoughts on putting emphasis on the second shot. I would just like to see it maybe 10 to 15 yards wider.

[Tony_Chapman]

Prairie Dunes sits right in the middle of my all-time top five behind Sand Hills and Ballyneal and ahead of Pebble Beach and Pinehurst #2. But, if I had to pick a course that I could play every day for the rest of my life it'd be Prairie Dunes. Is there a better compliment to a golf course?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have yet to have the privilege of playing this wonderful course. I was scouting an oil play near there two weeks ago. It amazed me how many nice sand ridges and rumpled land perfect for golf is in that part of Kansas and northern Oklahoma. The area is short of golfers and for that matter human beings.

[Brad Isaacs]

I just returned from an incredible trip to Praire Dunes.  Despite some travel issues (Delta sucks--and I am an Atlanta homer), it was a great couple days of golf.  Thanks  to Delta I missed Friday golf although with steady 42 mile per hour winds and gusts of 61!!, I am not sure I missed any "playable" golf.

The next two days was 54 holes of simply incredible golf.  I am not a picture taker since I am there to play but here are a few impressions:

Obviously, Maxwell found a portion of Kansas that is not flat.  The huge natural dunes and sandy soil were hard to believe.  You would walk up over a massive dune truly expecting to see an ocean on the other side when you could hardly be farther away.

The greens were borderline frightening.  Absolutely some of the most interesting, bold, demanding greens I have ever seen.  What really struck me was how severe and yet playable they were.  

The routing of the second nine by Maxwell's son flowed seemlessly.  I think most (certainly including me) would be hard pressed to point out the original nine holes versus the second nine added by Press.  The second nine was integrated into the middle of the existing nine so that makes it harder but I can't imagine a better integration of a second nine by a different person than this.

The elvation changes were amazing particularly the second shot into hole #8.  Also, I never hit so many 4-irons into "165" yard par threes in my life and the 17th green is an absolute gem.

I'd love to hear any thoughts but I was completely smitten

Oh, and they serve Jagermeister.    


T,

I love the tee of number 10, especially when a member is watching..... yes, short right and dead.......

1, 2, 6,7,8, 9,10, 17, 18  were the original Perry Maxwell holes.  I am not a fan of 17 and 18 although the green on 17 is really quite good. I will have to admit to thinking that the Perry Maxwell 9 is strongerthan the Press Maxwell 9.

1, 2, 6, 8, 9 rank up there in some of my all time favorite golf holes and this is on one course.  Press did some amazing holes that I love as well....11, 12, 13, 14, 15 are all strong holes by my account

(Perry beets Press 7 to 5)

 I can certainly see the evolution of Sand Hills as a growth out of Prairie Dunes.  I believe that Coore and Crenshaw were there doing some work just before they designed Sand Hills. 

Is this fact?

Thanks,

Brad Isaacs

[Andy Troeger]

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest here--it wouldn't be a real GCA thread without someone stirring the pot, right?

On one of my many attempts to understand why people pardon the narrowness at Desert Forest I mentioned that I didn't like the lack of recovery options once you strayed off the fairways there. One response mentioned Prairie Dunes as another course with a similar situation, at least from my recollection. I don't think its a reasonable comparison because the corridors at Prairie Dunes are FAR wider than those at Desert Forest, but at the same time I still can't totally love a course that forces a reload for essentially EVERY ball that finds the gunch. Many folks wouldn't like it at all if it were OB stakes and housing on each side, and while the visuals are far better, you have almost the same effect as OB at Prairie Dunes should you stray far enough.

I'll go on to say that I easily think its a top 100 course and because of the quality of the area between the gunch is the best course I've played that has this (lack of) recovery issue. I just can't ignore that entirely.