[Melvyn Morrow]

I was playing around with ideas a few weeks ago as to how to combat the need for distance aid. However there are just so many trees, doglegs, blinds shot etc. that can be used before frustration with the course sets in. So I was wondering if any designer has considered the problem now or in the past and come up with any new ideas.

In all seriousness with the spread of the Alzheimer ‘s  disease its becoming important that as we, as we  age should utilise our memory/brain cells more  in the hope of not falling victim to this awful illness. The same also seem to apply with our joints, in that we are being encouraged to use them or lose them, but we will leave that for another topic.

The game has become so airborne these days that IMHO we urgently need some serious design feature that combats both the aerial game and thus affecting the need for distance aids altogether.
Sort of bring the game more down to earth whilst pushing the importance of really navigating the course to generate the best tactical advantage.  A strategic course in all the true sense of the word, or are we not yet done with this urge to constantly increase the length of a courses at the expense of the average golfer.

I honestly feel that the design has the answer to many of our modern problems (albeit many do not consider them problems). We have had resort courses, courses built with a housing estate, where long distances have arisen between Green and next Tee, so has any designers been giving any thought to challenging the distance aid mentality, not to mention encouraging walking thus keeping courses to more normal sizes which must be good for initial start-up costs and on-going maintenance budgets.

Any comments or ever thought about this problem?

Melvyn

[Michael Moore]

Melvyn -

If you put a lead roof over any course, maybe at a height of thirty or forty feet, you would block GPS signals AND force the golfer to play a low shot.

Problem solved!

[Michael Dugger]

I get that you hate lasers, Melvyn, but do you also have a problem with trees indicating 150 yds.

Or poles or yardages on sprinkler heads?

Yardages on sprinkler heads is my preference as the candy cane poles in the fairways can begin to make the course look like an equestrian field.

Without a distance guide of some sort, I'm not sure I would enjoy golf.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Well, something like Skycaddie could be negated by a course simply not allowing them to come out and measure the course. The GPS iPhone app I am not sure about. And the laser range finders, the only way to negate those would be to have blind shots into every green and not be able to see the flagstick either.

As far as ground/aerial game, that's a completely different matter. I have played The Old Course 3 times, I assume you have played it many more. I played it on a reasonably calm day each time and I can say that among myself, the people in my group, and people I saw in adjacent fairways, I am not sure I saw a true ground shot played. Truth of the matter is, baring a site that has constant sustained winds of 20kts or more, the ground game is not going to be the preferred option for more than a small fraction of the guests at a given course.

Of course, the thought about solid architecture that allows for more ground game use and not solely aerial game is another matter...

[Brent Hutto]

Make it rock hard, tilt the greens away from the approach shots and provide a three-club breeze. Nobody will bother with a laser on a day like that.

Absent wind, the answer to your question is to a large extent no. Absent wind and serious firmness, the answer is a definite no.

P.S. Although you can play all sort of "Surprise, Surprise!" Gomer Pyle games with first-time players by hiding things and withholding information I assume you mean a course that will obviate distance aids for a player who has seen the course a couple of times already.

[Bill_McBride]

Assuming the course is not marked (sprinklers, plates, 150-yard markers, etc) and blocks GPS..........

Golf architects work hard to confuse the golfer with techniques and design elements that make distance judgment more difficult.  Some examples:

**  Contours, bunker lines, mounding etc that create blindness or even partial blindness when the player is out of position.  Only the correct position earns a look at the target.

**  Bunkers that appear to be greenside but are actually 40 yards in front of the green, thereby making a shot appear to be longer than it is, or making the player believe a ground game shot can't be played.

What are some others?  I think this is the most interesting part of golf architecture, the befuddlement of the player!

[Tim Nugent]

Bill my take is knowing the exact distance is only part of the equation, wind speed/direction, slope of the lie, elevatgion changes, all work to require mental adjustments to yardage.  Couple those with your aforementioned items and not only does the golfer need to do some mental calculus, he also has to has enough conviction to listen to what his brain is telling him, which will be something his eyes don't agree with.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill my take is knowing the exact distance is only part of the equation, wind speed/direction, slope of the lie, elevatgion changes, all work to require mental adjustments to yardage.  Couple those with your aforementioned items and not only does the golfer need to do some mental calculus, he also has to has enough conviction to listen to what his brain is telling him, which will be something his eyes don't agree with.

Great description of the GCA's mission:  "...not only does the golfer need to do some mental calculus, he also has to has enough conviction to listen to what his brain is telling him, which will be something his eyes don't agree with."

Thanks.   What you're saying is that Melvyn doesn't need to worry about absolute distance measuring as long as there are elements including design that will perplex the player.  I agree 100%.

[Jason Topp]

I think about this topic quite a bit when Melvyn brings up his distance aid position.  I think course design and maintenence practices have a huge impact on whether distance aids are useful.  While I am of the view that distance measuring devices do little to undermine the game, at least as I know it, I do think that differences in viewpoints on this issue have a lot to do with the type of golf course one prefers.

At one extreme, links courses render distance aids largely useless.  The combination of wind, firm ground and the lumpy contours of the fairways requires feel to hit a shot and the same club can vary in the distance it will travel by 100 yards or more.  In the wind, trajectory and side spin have more to do with where the ball lands than distance.  This difference is compounded with firm ground that forces the ball to roll.  For me, the very essence of links golf is taking all of these elements into account, imagining a shot that will place the ball where you want to put it and then hitting the shot.

At the other extreme are golf courses featuring significant water hazards and bermuda grass on which it would be foolish to hit a running shot.  On such courses, carry distance is the primary challenge.  Ponds in front of greens encourage the use of distance aids because one needs to know exactly how far he needs to carry a shot or else he receives essentially a two shot penalty.  Greens complexes that demand an aerial shot also make knowing distances much more critical.

While I prefer links golf, I enjoy aerial golf as well and prefer having variety available to me.  

[Jay Cox]

Uneven lies and elevation changes. 

And wind, but sadly one cannot design wind into a course that does not have it naturally (although one can at least avoid artificially blocking it).

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments, some good, bad and ugly.

I had hoped for some serious input as it is a serious question, but it just goes to show how entrenched distance is in the minds of the many in reality such a short period of time.

I was looking to see if a course could rise to the challenge in that it would offer the golfer more return therefore minimising or deleting the need for distance.

Clever answers do not hide the sickness that IMHO has engulfed the game,  nor the time wasted on such activities when we have within ourselves the complete answer. The old saying practice makes perfect, seems we have, alas no time to spend practicing wanting instant answers.

I hope some of the designers will comments as it was initially aimed at them.

Melvyn

PS Distance does not undermine the game, but it certainly does the player. He or she need HELP, They cannot judge distance, a fundamental part of golf through the ages, but hay what’s a little cheating when the R&A say it’s OK to cheat. The real problem is that each one using these aids is cheating themselves and no matter what excuse they come up with THEY NEEDED HELP TO JUDGE DISTANCES period

[Brent Hutto]

Melvyn,

My answer was perfectly serious, as were these others so far as I can tell. It is you who are not able to seriously engage in a discussion of any topic, as far as I can see.

I have generally avoided any topic you participate in for just this reason. My mistake this time. So shove it up yer arse, mate. Benefit of the doubt regarding your intentions is no longer tenable.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Brent

I had not read you comment when posting my reply#10, so you can relax - Post or do not post, that’s down to you, but at times you need to see the funny side - tell me which one did you think I was aiming at you The Good, The Bad or The Ugly? Alas none.

Melvyn

[Michael Dugger]

Yeah, umm, total jerk once again... 

You are just completely empty of substance, Mel.  Rants and soapbox describe you...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Michael

You are what you are, you play using aids, so you are a Cheat. Call me all the names you want but you cheat by using aids to judge distances.

If I am empty of substance you are just full of Sh#t. You post on threads to break down the debate because it may, just may show you up for the person you really are. Why post otherwise, if not to stir up the crap.

I'm not sure you enjoy life unless you can feed off someone.

Melvyn

[MikeJones]

Personal attacks on forums are so yawn inspiring.

Visual deception is still very much a tool that an architect can use.  Sure the tour pro might be discipled enough to overlook the visual aspect of a given shot and make himself hit the club that he knows is correct for the yardage but I've lost count of how many times I heard an amateur pro am partner say something along the lines of " I know its 150, but it doesn't look that far" and then proceed to dump the ball into the front trap.

[DMoriarty]

My home course (Rustic Canyon)  has all the usual distance aids but in my opinion they often do the golfer more harm that good.  Because of the slight incline of the land, the wind, many greens sloping away, and subtle contours around the greens, the actual distance is very rarely anything close what the hole plays and oftentimes you ought not to be aiming for the middle of the green anyway.   Often times new golfers are asking me and those with whom I play for yardages and oftentimes we don't know them, even from the tees on par threes.  Actually I have made it a point to learn these so I can answer the question, but I don't really consider them in my club selection or shot choice.  

All that said, and while I agree with Melvyn regarding artificial distance aids, don't we all eventually learn the distances at courses we normally play?

Melvyn,  I've always wondered about your position with regard to caddies?   Aren't caddies in essence an artificial distance aid?  Should it be against the rules for a caddy to give distance or club advice and for the player to seek it?

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

No problem with Caddies, but I do not agree that they should give out details – unless the Golfer askes then it’s between the two of them, not others within the group. For me the Caddie is there to carry my clubs and perhaps comment upon my performance over the just completed Hole. For info on my comments on Caddies see Rick Sides Topic ‘A Good Caddy’ for more comments.

The joy of the game is achieving it all by your own merits not from sources outside be it a Caddie, devices or books. The magic is in experience the unknown on new courses, and seeking alternative routes on existing known courses, pushing when you feel your skill is up to the challenge. After all its my game, I’m paying for it so I want to experience the full satisfaction of a good or poor round, as in real terms we really only learn by our mistakes.

Melvyn

[Scott Stearns]

I like to use a yardage book, but i back it up with both GPS and Sky Caddie to double check.  Looper usually steps it off too, to verify my calculations.

Melvyn, there's room for you in my group sat!  just let me know!

[Pete Lavallee]

The joy of the game is achieving it all by your own merits not from sources outside be it a Caddie, devices or books.

 Simple, eliminate any money changing hands and Distance Aids loose all relevence. Tour Pros are not playing for joy, thet are trying to feed their families. They discover the most effective way to perform this task and in turn casual golfers follow suit, because it fun to dip into your opponents pocket from time to  time.

[Kalen Braley]

The joy of the game is achieving it all by your own merits not from sources outside be it a Caddie, devices or books.

 Simple, eliminate any money changing hands and Distance Aids loose all relevence. Tour Pros are not playing for joy, thet are trying to feed their families. They discover the most effective way to perform this task and in turn casual golfers follow suit, because it fun to dip into your opponents pocket from time to  time.

Pete,

I'd be inclined to believe that, except half of the weekend warrior hacks use them, and most of em will struggle to break 90.  The cat is out of the bag...even if the pros stopped using them, I suspect most would still continue to use them. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Melvyn,

Melvyn,  I've always wondered about your position with regard to caddies?   Aren't caddies in essence an artificial distance aid?  Should it be against the rules for a caddy to give distance or club advice and for the player to seek it?

In your answer to David you seem to give short shrift to the duties of a caddie. From time immemorial, caddies have been around to be an aid to golfers, starting with the landed gentry hiring underemployed fishermen and rural laborors. As their skills improved over the centuries, I would suggest that if his master was in a money match he would have no compunction in piping up and telling to put away the cleek and use a rutting iron, or some such advice.

If a golfer feels that a distance aid is imperative to his golfing performance let him use one, it seldom makes not one iota of dfference in his final score, as is proved by the GHIN numbers on the club's sheets. 

Bob

[DMoriarty]

Bob,

I agree.  According to old tournament accounts, caddies have always been there giving the player advice about yardages, club selection, direction and such.   In big matches sometimes even the local professional served as caddie.   Not sure if Old Tom ever toted a bag and guided one of the well-to-do members, but is certainly wouldn't surprise me if he had. I am not sure I can reconcile the the age old reliance on caddies with the notion that all distance aids ought to be banned from the game.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Melvyn, first, how would you go about designing a course to negate the use of distance aids?

Second, lets say you and I are playing a game, for fun, nothing on the line, just a casual game among friends. We are playing at a course you have never played, but which I am a member and have played hundreds of times. No distance marking on the course at all, except for potentially on the Par 3 tee boxes. However, even with no distance aides, I know that its "250 yards to clear the bunker from this tee box" or "125 yards to the center of the green from that bunker" and so forth. So essentially, I am a walking yardage guide. What is your opinion on you asking me for help on a yardage from a given point where your ball lay?

And if you have no problem with asking me what the yardage to the hole/hazard/whatever is, then why the problem with a yardage guide or caddy or course markings that do exactly the same thing? Electronic aids are another subject all together, I am not sure I totally agree with their use.

And what about it you or I go to a course the day before we play a tournament, to be played at a course with no yardage markings, of course, and stepped off the entire course, from tee to green, positions of hazards, depth of green, etc., would you find it acceptable to use a self-made book like that? If not why not?

[Ross Tuddenham]

Melvyn

It would be possible to negate the use of distance aids, just add penalty strokes or disqualification for their use.  It would not however be possible to negate the usefulness of distance aids.  The type of design needed to render a distance aid useless would also ruin play for those choosing to play without them.

Some courses with softer greens and large penal hazards in front of the greens will of course provide those using distance aids a greater advantage than they would gain on a more traditional links course.  A course would need ridiculously hard fairways and greens and such extreme and constant elevation change to render the aids useless that the course would be no fun to play for anyone. 

So is it more a case of just persuading people to try a round without using them and letting them make their own mind up about golf with more elements of discovery to it.  Some may not be willing to trade shots for fun factor especially with a card in hand.  Could therefore matchplay be a more suitable format for encouraging players to try golf without the use of aids?  Assuming neither player is using them.

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