Do carts really dumb down a golf course?

[Sean Leary]

Bob H:

I am not sure I understand your perspective on the issue.  Your example of Pine Valley confused me.  They have a time and a place for carts -- on the little course, not the big one.  Merion takes the same view.  But of course, not every club has the luxury of 36 holes so they can have it both ways.

There are instances where they do take something away from the golf course.  Sometimes it's about turf; sometimes it's about aesthetics, because there is no way to hide the paths in the landscape; sometimes it is about design decisions you couldn't make if you had to site a path.  [The place where we would have had the most trouble with a cart path at Pacific Dunes, which no one correctly identified, was at the 10th hole; getting a cart path to #11 tee would have either changed the hole or been Godawfully ugly.  We can let 2-3 carts a day drive across the apron of the green to get to that next tee, but if it was many more than that, we'd have had to build a different hole.]

At the same time, I've known people who love the game who just have to take a cart -- and not just seniors -- when we were building Pacific Dunes, we met Casey Martin, who would occasionally come down to Bandon to play with his dad.  I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule.  At the same time, I don't want to ruin the course for all the non-cart people so that every lazy-ass guy can ride.


NOTE:  Aha!  You just posted while I was typing.  I think we are on the same page after all.

"I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule. "
But you do. Why not limit the carts on the course  to a certain number or after a certain hour and alow those that can't walk 18 the oportunity to see and play your "walking only" courses. When I started playing golf in the 1970's my home course had no cart paths and still allowed carts without noticable damage, couldn't a limited number of carts being allowed not be damaging?
 

If someone is disabled, they can use a cart at Bandon....

[Tim Leahy]

Bob H:

I am not sure I understand your perspective on the issue.  Your example of Pine Valley confused me.  They have a time and a place for carts -- on the little course, not the big one.  Merion takes the same view.  But of course, not every club has the luxury of 36 holes so they can have it both ways.

There are instances where they do take something away from the golf course.  Sometimes it's about turf; sometimes it's about aesthetics, because there is no way to hide the paths in the landscape; sometimes it is about design decisions you couldn't make if you had to site a path.  [The place where we would have had the most trouble with a cart path at Pacific Dunes, which no one correctly identified, was at the 10th hole; getting a cart path to #11 tee would have either changed the hole or been Godawfully ugly.  We can let 2-3 carts a day drive across the apron of the green to get to that next tee, but if it was many more than that, we'd have had to build a different hole.]

At the same time, I've known people who love the game who just have to take a cart -- and not just seniors -- when we were building Pacific Dunes, we met Casey Martin, who would occasionally come down to Bandon to play with his dad.  I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule.  At the same time, I don't want to ruin the course for all the non-cart people so that every lazy-ass guy can ride.


NOTE:  Aha!  You just posted while I was typing.  I think we are on the same page after all.

"I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule. "
But you do. Why not limit the carts on the course  to a certain number or after a certain hour and alow those that can't walk 18 the oportunity to see and play your "walking only" courses. When I started playing golf in the 1970's my home course had no cart paths and still allowed carts without noticable damage, couldn't a limited number of carts being allowed not be damaging?
 

If someone is disabled, they can use a cart at Bandon....

Not everyone who can't or chooses not walk eighteen holes is legally disabled.
What if the situation was reversed and all Bandon courses required carts and did not allow any walking for speed of play reasons?
There seems to be a way to allow some carts on the course and not completely ban them for all.

[Sean Leary]

Bob H:

I am not sure I understand your perspective on the issue.  Your example of Pine Valley confused me.  They have a time and a place for carts -- on the little course, not the big one.  Merion takes the same view.  But of course, not every club has the luxury of 36 holes so they can have it both ways.

There are instances where they do take something away from the golf course.  Sometimes it's about turf; sometimes it's about aesthetics, because there is no way to hide the paths in the landscape; sometimes it is about design decisions you couldn't make if you had to site a path.  [The place where we would have had the most trouble with a cart path at Pacific Dunes, which no one correctly identified, was at the 10th hole; getting a cart path to #11 tee would have either changed the hole or been Godawfully ugly.  We can let 2-3 carts a day drive across the apron of the green to get to that next tee, but if it was many more than that, we'd have had to build a different hole.]

At the same time, I've known people who love the game who just have to take a cart -- and not just seniors -- when we were building Pacific Dunes, we met Casey Martin, who would occasionally come down to Bandon to play with his dad.  I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule.  At the same time, I don't want to ruin the course for all the non-cart people so that every lazy-ass guy can ride.


NOTE:  Aha!  You just posted while I was typing.  I think we are on the same page after all.

"I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule. "
But you do. Why not limit the carts on the course  to a certain number or after a certain hour and alow those that can't walk 18 the oportunity to see and play your "walking only" courses. When I started playing golf in the 1970's my home course had no cart paths and still allowed carts without noticable damage, couldn't a limited number of carts being allowed not be damaging?
 

If someone is disabled, they can use a cart at Bandon....

Not everyone who can't or chooses not walk eighteen holes is legally disabled.
What if the situation was reversed and all Bandon courses required carts and did not allow any walking for speed of play reasons?
There seems to be a way to allow some carts on the course and not completely ban them for all.

Lots of courses require carts. The courses at Bandon were explicitly created for those who choose to walk. There are very, very few golfers who are unable to walk.  Many who fit into that category are disabled and are allowed to take a cart. If you take it beyond that in terms of that with some of the examples you mentioned, it opens up a can of worms that cannot be closed again. 99 percent of courses allow carts. Its OK to me to have some that don't.

[David Harshbarger]

I walk whenever possible.  But, my young sons are exhausted by trudging around 9 holes, so for them, I get a cart.  To me it is most important that they have fun.  Death marches aren't fun.

As we played our round this evening, it was nice to see the high school kids with bag over shoulder walking the course.  They had they great cadence to their stride: measured, leaning forward, purposeful, engaged, in the moment.

Any course that enjoys those players deserves a bump.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Bob H.,

In my first post in which you found the word "stupid" to be uncalled for and offensive I typed my response while pondering the title of this thread which asks about dumbing down.

Dumbing down struck me as euphemistically leading to "stupid",  ergo my comment.

Next time I will echo the thread and use "dumb". "Stupid" was, admittedly, over the top.

Again, sorry to offend.

[Bob_Huntley]

Malcolm,

Thank you for replying, I know you were not being unkind.

Best wishes.

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

I walk whenever possible.  But, my young sons are exhausted by trudging around 9 holes, so for them, I get a cart.  To me it is most important that they have fun.  Death marches aren't fun.
...

RED FLAG! RED FLAG! How old are your sons? When I was a young son in the low grades of elementary school it would be the parents that would be tired by 9 holes of golf, not the sons. Do your sons need to give up TV and video games?

[Terry Lavin]

I just came back from a three-day trip to Bandon Dunes.  On the plane ride home, I was debating a friend on the subject of quirk on the Bandon Trails course.  He made the point that quirk in any "volume" doesn't belong on a resort course, because most people wouldn't play the course enough to acclimate themselves to the hidden hazards and potentially unfair occurrences.  He felt that private clubs would be a different issue, however, since the members and their invited guests can accumulate knowledge over the course of time, thus lessening the punitive affect of some of the quirky features.

I took a slightly different view.  In my judgment, quirk on a resort like Bandon Dunes is perfectly appropriate, because almost nobody gets a cart, and only the true locals walk with a pull cart.  The rest of us have experienced caddies that can attempt to describe, in broad detail, what lay ahead, particularly in the instance of a blind shot or some subtlety that one might miss on the first few plays.  In short, it is the existence of the great caddie corps at Bandon that allowed Keiser to build the kind of courses that he built.  Resort golfers riding carts (even with a forecaddie) would inevitably rebel against the sort of quirk that makes those courses so special, not to mention the amount of time they'd spend riding around looking for lost nuggets.

So my answer to this question is a qualified "yes".

[Jud_T]

Terry,

Agreed.  Except of course for #14 green 

[Garland Bayley]

Terry,

Good golf if and only if quirk? quirk if and only if no carts? I think your post makes little sense.

[SL_Solow]

Garland;  I think Terry makes a more limited point which relates to the topic.  On courses where there will be limited repeat play (e.g. resort courses) and where carts are de rigeur as opposed to experienced caddies, quirky features become untenable.  Thus to the extent that the architect wishes to utilize or inject quirky features into the course, he is likely to meet with strong resistance for the reasons noted by Terry.  Under that very limited circumstance it is fair to say that the use of carts may limit the features available to the architect and may at times "dumb down" the design.  I think it is an interesting point which I had overlooked.  I also think it has a very limited application in considering the broader question posed.  I doubt that Terry would disagree.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland;  I think Terry makes a more limited point which relates to the topic.  On courses where there will be limited repeat play (e.g. resort courses) and where carts are de rigeur as opposed to experienced caddies, quirky features become untenable.  thus to the extent that the architect wishes to utilize or inject quirky features into the course, he is likely to meet with strong resistance for the reasons noted by Terry.  Under that very limited circumstance it is fair to say that the use of carts may limit the features available to the architect and may at times "dumb down" the design.  I think it is an interesting point which I had overlooked.  I also think it has a very limited application in considering the broader question posed.  I doubt that Terry would disagree.

I can accept that explanation.

[Tim Leahy]

Sorry Terry your arguement doesn't hold water. Pebble and Spyglass just to name a few are highly rated courses that allow carts, have cart paths and still have quirk and great GCA.
You can't please all the people all the time, but excluding a whole class of golfers from a great course is wrong whether it's from not allowing walking or not allowing carts.

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Terry your arguement doesn't hold water. Pebble, Olympic, and Spyglass just to name a few are highly rated courses that allow carts, have cart paths and still have quirk and great GCA.
You can't please all the people all the time, but excluding a whole class of golfers from a great course is wrong whether it's from not allowing walking or not allowing carts.

It seems to me that Bandon is not excluding anybody. Rather that anybody is excluding themselves.

[Kalen Braley]

Sorry Terry your arguement doesn't hold water. Pebble and Spyglass just to name a few are highly rated courses that allow carts, have cart paths and still have quirk and great GCA.
You can't please all the people all the time, but excluding a whole class of golfers from a great course is wrong whether it's from not allowing walking or not allowing carts.

Tim,

You're going to have a hard time selling this one on this site because the vast vast majority of course exclude walkers as opposed to visa versa.

If you have a disability that precludes you from playing Bandon, go see a Doctor, get a note, and schedule a time to play the courses with a cart.  If not, then get out and do some "training" so you can play.  It seems pretty simple to me.

[Michael Blake]

I normally walk.

But tomorrow I'm playing with a good friend who likes to ride-so I ride with him.
My rounds with him are about the camaraderie and the execution of golf shots.  Plain and simple.

And, I ran 12 miles today training for a marathon & tomorrow is my 'rest day' so not walking tomorrow is ideal.
I forgot to ask for a note from the cart police on this site for permission to walk tomorrow.

As someone posted earlier, it's the cart paths-not the carts.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Michael

Why is it that Walkers always give way to their lazy friends who like to ride.

Perhaps Walkers are just that much more considerate and will try to accommodate others whiles riders are so Fuc@ing selfish that they will ride till Hell freezes over, than consider their friends.

Not to mention their total disrespect and disregard for the Royal and Ancient Game of Golf.

Go kneel and tip your cap to your so called able-bodied friend who certainly does not consider your feeling re golf.

Enjoy

Melvyn

PS Your friend is certainly taking you for a ride.

[Jud_T]

Both my current and former club were walking focused but allowed carts and have no paths, or minimal unpaved transition areas.  Of course they don't do the traffic that Bandon does.  Private clubs that don't get a ton of play can handle some cart traffic with little to no interruption from paths.  What we're talking about are public venues that do 20+k rounds per year where people primarily ride.  Any course which has paved surfaces all the way round is dumbed down to some extent IMHO...

[David Harshbarger]

I walk whenever possible.  But, my young sons are exhausted by trudging around 9 holes, so for them, I get a cart.  To me it is most important that they have fun.  Death marches aren't fun.
...

RED FLAG! RED FLAG! How old are your sons? When I was a young son in the low grades of elementary school it would be the parents that would be tired by 9 holes of golf, not the sons. Do your sons need to give up TV and video games?

Garland,  boys and cars, need I say more?

Besides, half the time the 6 year old is running to his ball, his dropped club, the green, the tee, just to run.  And the 9 year old, he wants to hold the steering wheel and push the pedal.  I'd rather that, and the now predictable 3:30 phone call asking "Daddy, can we play golf when you get home?" than push them to experience some "pure" golf they dread.

The 9 year old had his first par Tuesday!  You should have seen him jumping and whooping!  I'll drive him around all day ifnit means he's going to have a yearning for that feeling for life.

Dave

[Kirk Gill]

Is "dumb down" a euphemism for "make easier?

If so, then of course carts dumb down a course. Many clubhouses are on the top of hills, and so many courses finish with uphill holes. Riding takes away the element of fitness that these uphill holes test. And of course this isn't true only of finishing holes. If you've climbed up to any green location, you're putting with your heart beating just a little faster. Isn't that part of the challenge of golf? Certainly not the central challenge, but it's a part of the game.

Understand, I'm overweight, and walking 18 holes is a hell of a challenge for me. You can call me names if you want, stupid or lazy or fat or whatever. Walking a course is what I need to be doing, but sometimes I ride. I understand what I'm losing by it, and what I'm missing out on, but playing is better than not playing. I'd want to train some before going up to Bandon, or taking on Ballyneal or any other course that requires that I walk (assuming that they'd let my fat butt on the property). But even without all of the aesthetic or historical or moral or "I'm better than you" arguments regarding the use of a cart, it can't be denied that it removes one challenge from the game in that it makes it physically less taxing. Not much of an issue for the truly fit, but for others, certainly a consideration.

[Garland Bayley]

Good point Kirk,

And don't worry, they will let you on the property at Bandon even if it is to only to eat the over-hyped Grandma's meatloaf.