[Tim Leahy]

Malcom,

"Nuff said." I have never been rude to a poster in my nine years on this site but you sound like an arrogant pupil of our English true believer Mr. Morrow. I want people to learn to play the game and decide for themselves what they want from it. If they get enjoyment from not walking or cannot afford a caddie, let them ride. Their contribution to the finances of the club will keep your dues under control.

How on earth can riding a cart dumb down a golf course? The best pure golfing test in these United States is Pine Valley, when the members have played the big course they go out, in carts, and enjoy the annex. There is no dumbing down there.


Bob

Amen

[Garland Bayley]

Here is an example of when carts have dumbed down a golf course.



Before you draw any conclusions about the quality of the hole pictured, I would suggest photography does not adequately display what you are looking at. I doubt anyone not familiar with the particulars of the measurements could guess them on this hole.

[SL_Solow]

Garland;  I thought I had expressed my view but I am happy to clarify it.  If the course is materially altered to allow for carts by the intrusion of cart paths into areas which would otherwise be in play, or if the routing is changed so as to make the course less walkable then the course is likely to have been "dumbed down".  It is conceivable that in some circumstances, the use of carts may allow a routing that leads to the use of more interesting ground which is difficult to access on foot but I suspect that those instances will be rare and there may be other solutions.  But again, in my view, it is not the cart that dumbs down the course.  Most of our great courses allow carts but the course remains substantially the same for us walkers and thus it is unaffected in any material way.  It may not be the same for the riders (unless they are very discerning) but the course is still there.  I hope this is a clear exposition of my view.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland;  I thought I had expressed my view but I am happy to clarify it.  If the course is materially altered to allow for carts by the intrusion of cart paths into areas which would otherwise be in play, or if the routing is changed so as to make the course less walkable then the course is likely to have been "dumbed down".  It is conceivable that in some circumstances, the use of carts may allow a routing that leads to the use of more interesting ground which is difficult to access on foot but I suspect that those instances will be rare and there may be other solutions.  But again, in my view, it is not the cart that dumbs down the course.  Most of our great courses allow carts but the course remains substantially the same for us walkers and thus it is unaffected in any material way.  It may not be the same for the riders (unless they are very discerning) but the course is still there.  I hope this is a clear exposition of my view.

It seems you are taking the subject literally. The subject should really say "Does making accommodations for carts in building golf courses cause the courses to be less than they could otherwise be?" This is what I have been writing about as it was clear that the subject of this thread was taken from a comment I made on another thread. I assumed that Keith in creating this thread was not aware that Tom Doak has said that he could not have created as good of a course at Pacific Dunes if had to make accommodations for carts. That is why I started commenting on this thread using examples from Pac Dunes. For those familiar with Chambers Bay #10 and Astoria CC #3 pictured above, they should be able to clearly see that you cannot get the same quality if you accommodate carts. I trust Keith will understand that now, and I am done with this thread. (I hope )

[Keith OHalloran]

Garland,
I did not know that Tom Doak said that about Pacific Dunes, and that is why I started the thread. I like to learn on this site, and the answers that have been given, and the people that gave them have helped me understand.
I am not as far along in my understanding as many here, and I have found that asking questions helps. As a matter of fact, I am not embarassed to admit I have been to Chambers Bay, and just by being there, I am not sure I can tell why the course could not have been made that way if carts were allowed.

[Garland Bayley]

Keith,

Unless the allow the cart to drive through the narrow entrance to the 10th green and then over the green to exit, they would have to "dumb down" the terrain around the green to allow cart ballers access. Any more than the 1 or 2 medical exceptions per month in a cart would be a ruination of the hole as it exists today.

[SL_Solow]

If the issue is using fescue, the answer is pretty simple.  As I understand it, fescue and carts won't mix.  Absent cart path only, which in my view dumbs down almost every course as continuous paths are inevitably a problem, there won't be a fescue course.  If you are asking whether carts can dumb down designs, the answer is yes and there are many examples beyond those you cited.  But if the suggestion is that allowing carts necessarily dumbs down a course, it will take more than a few examples to make your case.  I wonder if Tom Doak would say what you attributed to him regarding Pacific about all of the courses he has built; e.g. those that allow carts are all worse for having allowed them.  In advance, I don't expect Tom to answer given that he has clients to consider.

[Keith OHalloran]

Thanks,
I went and looked at a photo of 10 and it makes sense.
The next question then is do you think many/all courses that were built with carts in mind are not as good as they could have been?. Or is that stretching a bit?

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks,
I went and looked at a photo of 10 and it makes sense.
The next question then is do you think many/all courses that were built with carts in mind are not as good as they could have been?. Or is that stretching a bit?

The comment I made on the other thread was to a person who is constantly bemoaning the fact that he cannot play at Bandon and at Chambers, because they do not allow carts. So it was primarily in reference to places like those. I will not maintain that all courses architecture is dumbed down by accommodating carts, but perhaps more than you may think of at first thought. One particular problem is the effect on running the ball into the green. No longer are you playing the game in nature as it was meant to be, but instead making accommodation for unnatural surfaces. Furthermore, think about that fact that the users of carts cannot be trusted to do the right thing, so you are additionally faced with curbs on cart paths that can reject the running ball and return it back to you.

[Tim Leahy]

Here is an example of when carts have dumbed down a golf course.



Before you draw any conclusions about the quality of the hole pictured, I would suggest photography does not adequately display what you are looking at. I doubt anyone not familiar with the particulars of the measurements could guess them on this hole.

Please explain how the cart path dumbs down the hole? I don't have any idea what you are talking about.

[Garland Bayley]

Here is an example of when carts have dumbed down a golf course.



Before you draw any conclusions about the quality of the hole pictured, I would suggest photography does not adequately display what you are looking at. I doubt anyone not familiar with the particulars of the measurements could guess them on this hole.

Please explain how the cart path dumbs down the hole? I don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Obviously the aesthetics are ruined. Tom Doak crossed the course off his to see list when he saw the ruined aesthetics.
The cart path presents an artificial surface that is very much in play that can artificially alter play. Instead of playing the ball as it lies, it adds picking up and dropping when here it is a waste of time if the nearest point of relief is below the path, because the ball will roll out of the allowable range and after two drops you are going to have to place anyway. The cart path can artificially turn great shots into bad results, and bad shots into great results.

If you want to play in an artificial environment, you can get golf simulators to play in your home or garage that will allow you to play all courses licensed by them. The you can harass the manufacturer to give you Bandon and Chambers. Stop forcing your artificial environments into golf.

[Mike Hamilton]

Carts have dumbed down golf, at least in many parts of the US and in many situations because they have become the rule not the exception.

I play a lot of golf in business situations and on almost every public golf course in any business or more casual golf situation with "strangers: (i.e. folks I haven't golfed with before), it is assumed you are riding.  I have a lot of respect for people with physical limitations (whether by age or injury or whatever) who are still getting out with carts, or with electric trolleys, or whatever device they truly needed to be playing and would never stand in their way of enjoying this great game (and neither does Bandon).  Here in the South when its 95F+ and humid I will occassionally choose a cart myself and I struggle with knee issues and know someday I may be forced to a cart more often.

But the sad truth is, a large portion of golfers would never even consider walking.  I hate the pace of the game in a cart, I hate my cart "partner" hovering beside me while I take my next stroke, and I hate how it can destroy a great day outdoors walking.   The rule rather than the exception makes the game less fun for those of us who sometimes feel like the lunatic fringe for suggesting it.

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob

I was not going to respond to this topic hoping to get a good debate going without it always reflecting upon my opinions, but alas I have to respond thanks to your unworthy invitation.

I do not know what it is but I will happily put it down to age and you having a senior moment
when you said “I have never been rude to a poster in my nine years on this site but you sound like an arrogant pupil of our English true believer Mr. Morrow.”

You have been extremely rude to this Member who dares to voice an independent opinion that perhaps differes from yours. That one word comment was I believe (by all means correct me if I am wrong) ‘Asshole’. However not satisfied with your past indiscretion,  you continue your attack upon my person in the form of calling me ‘English’.

I presume that it can only be put down to age getting the better of you or could it have anything to do with forgetting which Nation is currently receiving your loyalty. I am rather fortunate that my loyalty has always been directed to the same country.  Having corrected your errors I feel I have to make a comment regards the carts part in dumbing down the experience of the game.

Before you talk about carts you must look to the game of Golf which by its own nature is a walking game. The biggest problem with the pro cart argument is that you regard it as a form of transport to get from point A to point B, however the Golfers among us know that walking between these point gives the player so much information. One’s gentle ingress thought the Hole allows the walker the opportunity to feel and observe not just the course, but the light throwing shadows upon the surface of the Fairways/Greens allowing one to study the contours as you approach your next shot.  One notices and feels the land as one walks, add to that the opportunity to really notice the light highlighting the minor bumps helps our understand of GCA, natural and the workings of Nature. Walking gives the player more than just understanding the GCA, as well as the Hole he/she is playing in far more details that flying by on a cart.

Of course that is not dumbing down the course for the cart riders, for the simple reason they have no knowledge let alone understand of what they are missing. In their mind they are not wasting energy in walking and can whisk or tack from side to side on a golf course uncaring for the ground , other players and the game of golf itself.

Carts do take away big chunks of the experience one can gain by walking a golf course, but of course that is not dumbing down a golf course  - is it – Of Course it is, Hell you guys are far from stupid, those that ride do so because they do not want to play golf but cart golf, no problem but why not just admit it.

The Game of Golf is a Walking Game, period, ride fine but have the F#@k*7g Balls to be honest with yourselves and say you are lazy, can’t hack the hot weather or whatever it is, so you ride. How dare for your own weakness you attack those of us who believe in the game so push ourselves to keep the heart and spirit of Golf alive.

I have never had any objections to people riding, but I do object to them thinking they are playing the same game as I am when I walk every foot, calculate with my mind and eyes, that’s golf and I have earned the right to call myself a Golfer. You ride so call it carts golf or you use aids call it assisted golf, but NO that will not do, will it Guys,  its seem to smack or weakness or betrayal of being unworthy, so we all run for the large umbrella called golf. Sorry in my opinion, be brave and admit your weakness, no shame in doing so, but lie about it, that is totally despicable in my eyes.

It all boils down to self-respect and the ability to look at oneself in the mirror  -     Do carts really dumb down a golf course – YES of course it does.

Melvyn

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob

I was not going to respond to this topic hoping to get a good debate going without it always reflecting upon my opinions, but alas I have to respond thanks to your unworthy invitation.

I do not know what it is but I will happily put it down to age and you having a senior moment
when you said “I have never been rude to a poster in my nine years on this site but you sound like an arrogant pupil of our English true believer Mr. Morrow.”

You have been extremely rude to this Member who dares to voice an independent opinion that perhaps differes from yours. That one word comment was I believe (by all means correct me if I am wrong) ‘Asshole’. However not satisfied with your past indiscretion,  you continue your attack upon my person in the form of calling me ‘English’.

I presume that it can only be put down to age getting the better of you or could it have anything to do with forgetting which Nation is currently receiving your loyalty. I am rather fortunate that my loyalty has always been directed to the same country.  Having corrected your errors I feel I have to make a comment regards the carts part in dumbing down the experience of the game.

Before you talk about carts you must look to the game of Golf which by its own nature is a walking game. The biggest problem with the pro cart argument is that you regard it as a form of transport to get from point A to point B, however the Golfers among us know that walking between these point gives the player so much information. One’s gentle ingress thought the Hole allows the walker the opportunity to feel and observe not just the course, but the light throwing shadows upon the surface of the Fairways/Greens allowing one to study the contours as you approach your next shot.  One notices and feels the land as one walks, add to that the opportunity to really notice the light highlighting the minor bumps helps our understand of GCA, natural and the workings of Nature. Walking gives the player more than just understanding the GCA, as well as the Hole he/she is playing in far more details that flying by on a cart.

Of course that is not dumbing down the course for the cart riders, for the simple reason they have no knowledge let alone understand of what they are missing. In their mind they are not wasting energy in walking and can whisk or tack from side to side on a golf course uncaring for the ground , other players and the game of golf itself.

Carts do take away big chunks of the experience one can gain by walking a golf course, but of course that is not dumbing down a golf course  - is it – Of Course it is, Hell you guys are far from stupid, those that ride do so because they do not want to play golf but cart golf, no problem but why not just admit it.

The Game of Golf is a Walking Game, period, ride fine but have the F#@k*7g Balls to be honest with yourselves and say you are lazy, can’t hack the hot weather or whatever it is, so you ride. How dare for your own weakness you attack those of us who believe in the game so push ourselves to keep the heart and spirit of Golf alive.

I have never had any objections to people riding, but I do object to them thinking they are playing the same game as I am when I walk every foot, calculate with my mind and eyes, that’s golf and I have earned the right to call myself a Golfer. You ride so call it carts golf or you use aids call it assisted golf, but NO that will not do, will it Guys,  its seem to smack or weakness or betrayal of being unworthy, so we all run for the large umbrella called golf. Sorry in my opinion, be brave and admit your weakness, no shame in doing so, but lie about it, that is totally despicable in my eyes.

It all boils down to self-respect and the ability to look at oneself in the mirror  -     Do carts really dumb down a golf course – YES of course it does.

Melvyn

My dear Melvyn,

I do owe you an apology, I wrote English, knowing full well that you are Scot with family ties that are immemorial. You may not have read my opening paragraph as I meant to write it, I do consider you to be the true believer in that riding and the use of gadgets have no place in the game. Your 3800 plus posts have reiterated that belief ad nauseam.

I wrote what I did, when Malcom  used the term "Stupid" in regard to golfers who did not conform to his idea of what people, other than the handicapped,  rode in golf carts. I did not attack him, I thought him out of line.

Bob

[Andy Troeger]

I think the answer to the original question has to be yes. Outside of perhaps the road hole, there isn't a cart path/road that I can think of that adds anything to a golf hole. Its not that hard to find ones that detract. Garland's example of #10 at Chambers Bay is a hole that would likely suffer pretty greatly from paths. The Bandon courses seemed better to me for not having to deal with paths other than for maintenance and walking purposes. The walking paths at Trails were especially fun.

However, with all that said, I don't think it dumbs things down by much. Pebble Beach might be better without the wall to wall paths, but most of them are so far out of the way as to be irrelevant. Just like the main design components, a lot of this depends on who built them. Courses that can take cart traffic on fairways can avoid wall-to-wall paths and many of the associated problems as long as the paths are kept a fair distance from the greens.

[John Mayhugh]

Melvyn;  You are more than entitled to have a view of your own.  Each of us is entitled to evaluate your view and form our own.  we are also entitled to express our opinion of your statements. That is called a debate and is the foundation for the anglo -american emphasis on free speech.  The idea is that by encouraging a "marketplace of ideas", there is a better opportunity for people to make informed decisions and reach appropriate conclusions. You appear to be delighted to criticize others and are quickly offended when you are challenged.  When one enters into the markletplace of ideas, whether the ideas are political (which is what our First Amendment really seeks to protect) or something as mundane as golf course architecture, one must be prepared to face criticism and defend oneself.  Repeating the same statements over and over and complaining that one is being treated unfairly is rarely persuasive.  No need to educate me on free speech or proper debate.

As to the "dumbing down" issue, you and I agree that walking provides a better experience.  We further agree that the rider gets a less sophisticated view of the course.  But unless the design is altered to accomodate carts, the "course"  and its architecture have not been "dumbed down", the experience for the rider has been lessened.  The course and its architecture are there to be experienced to the fullest by the walking golfer.  That is why David Kelly and others have focused on whether there are continuous paths and whether routings are altered because carts are available.  That is why several posters have noted outstanding courses that permit cart usage.  In short, one should not confuse the individuals lessening his experience by choosing to ride with the underlying architectural integrity that exists for the walking golfer.  If one is prepared to think about the problem,one can perceive the ability to separate a distaste for walking and other non-traditional means of playing from the evaluation of the underlying architecture.

You really need to post more often.  Very well said.

[JNC Lyon]

Carts dumb down a golf course from several perspectives.

Carts mean cart paths, which mean presenting a blatantly artificial and ugly surface into a natural environment.  A carpath ALWAYS detracts from the visual appeal of a golf hole if it is visible in any way.  A cartpath takes away from the natural, rugged element of a golf course.

Taking a cart means zooming past important land features and architectural features that are critical to understanding any golf course.  A golfer who rides always misses something important about the golf course.  Walking a course will always give a better feel for the terrain and, more importantly, the strengths and weaknesses of a golf course routing.

Carts take away from the adventure of a golf course.  I have played several courses this year, including Galloway National, May River, Lederach, Morgan Hill, and Inniscrone, which are modern golf courses routed with cart golf as a some sort of crutch or necessity.  However, each of these courses was a true adventure to walk and play.  From the walk through the live oak forests of May River to the long, heart rate-raising hikes at Morgan Hill, walking was a part of the experience that made the course a blast to play.  Morgan Hill was especially fun to walk, as it really made me appreciate the way the routing traversed the rugged terrain.  After diving downhill on holes 10-12, the course climbed several hundred feet from 13 tee to 15 tee.  As I reached the 15th tee, I felt as if I had completed a mini-mountain climb, and it only enhanced the experience.  Golf becomes more than a walk in the park on these types of courses, turning into more of an engaging journey of self-discovery.  If I had not walked any of these courses, all of which have routings that give players an excuse to ride, I would have missed an essential aspect of golf.

If you want to get away from your wife for four hours and drink some beer, go to a strip club.  If you want to have an adventure, observe the land and architectural features of a golf course, and engage with nature, play golf and walk.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I once had a strip joint adjacent to a corner of the course.  I jokingly suggested a cart path routing right to the parking lot, through the fence, justifying it as a "speed of play" feature. I figured half the golfers would exit the course by the 14th tee, speeding it up for everyone else.......

[JNC Lyon]

I once had a strip joint adjacent to a corner of the course.  I jokingly suggested a cart path routing right to the parking lot, through the fence, justifying it as a "speed of play" feature. I figured half the golfers would exit the course by the 14th tee, speeding it up for everyone else.......

Sounds like a modern version of Mrs. Formans at Musselburgh.

[Rob Rigg]

Tim,

Is that a rhetorical question?

How was the hole originally designed and how has the cart path changed the hole off the tee?

I would argue - significantly.

It's a gully - unless you hit the cart path on the left side which could send your drive into outer space. I would say that seriously changes the original design of the hole.

Designing a course to accommodate cart paths CAN seriously compromise the design elements of the course.

There is a reason that Mr Keiser did not create cart paths at Bandon Dunes - because NONE of the courses would be what they are today if the architects had to accommodate them in the design - there are many many examples of this at the resort.

Is there a better golf destination in the world? Bandon is so class that golfers who ride in carts every weekend will get out of them and enjoy the game as it was meant to be played - TM, R, Copyright, Etc

Chapeau Mr Keiser - a true modern visionary.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

To Bob Huntley,

Sorry to tick you off Bob. It certainly was not my intent to sound arrogant. Opinionated, perhaps, but hey! we are allowed to differ in opinion. If not why even have this forum.

If my first post came off as brusque and dismissive, I tried to soften it immediately with a second.

You seem to like cart golf. Fine! Whatever floats your boat. Doesn't bother me a bit. My preference is to walk and my hope is that you do not judge me harshly as well. I'm sure we could enjoy a perfectly pleasurable 18 together with me walking and you riding.

Regarding Pine Valley, yes, carts are available but by far the majority of rounds there are walked. My colleague who has been a member most of his life estimated that in in his experience he might see one or two carts out on the golf course at the most. If you do take a cart you are required to stay on the paths which are relegated to the far perimeter of each hole and walk back and forth to play your shots and also you are still required to have a caddy with you.

In my "opinion" that would detract from my enjoyment of the golf course. Half the fun of hells half acre is walking through it. Who would want to go to Pine Valley and spend all day driving around the perimeters of the holes in the scrub pine.

Dumbed down?, no. Less fun?,  for me big time.

[Bob_Huntley]

To Bob Huntley,

Sorry to tick you off Bob. It certainly was not my intent to sound arrogant. Opinionated, perhaps, but hey! we are allowed to differ in opinion. If not why even have this forum.

If my first post came off as brusque and dismissive, I tried to soften it immediately with a second.

You seem to like cart golf. Fine! Whatever floats your boat. Doesn't bother me a bit. My preference is to walk and my hope is that you do not judge me harshly as well. I'm sure we could enjoy a perfectly pleasurable 18 together with me walking and you riding.

Regarding Pine Valley, yes, carts are available but by far the majority of rounds there are walked. My colleague who has been a member most of his life estimated that in in his experience he might see one or two carts out on the golf course at the most. If you do take a cart you are required to stay on the paths which are relegated to the far perimeter of each hole and walk back and forth to play your shots and also you are still required to have a caddy with you.

In my "opinion" that would detract from my enjoyment of the golf course. Half the fun of hells half acre is walking through it. Who would want to go to Pine Valley and spend all day driving around the perimeters of the holes in the scrub pine.

Dumbed down?, no. Less fun?,  for me big time.

Malcom,

I don't think I ever wrote that I liked using carts and perhaps you would lead me to where I made that statement. Up until last year I walked most of the time and thought nothing of it. Circumstances changed and now if I want to play eighteen holes, I use a cart. The change also got me to thinking that if people ride, no matter how young and fit they be, let them do so and enjoy what they are doing, but admit that it isn't golf as we know it.

What irked me was your use of the word stupid, it was uncalled for.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Bob H:

I am not sure I understand your perspective on the issue.  Your example of Pine Valley confused me.  They have a time and a place for carts -- on the little course, not the big one.  Merion takes the same view.  But of course, not every club has the luxury of 36 holes so they can have it both ways.

There are instances where they do take something away from the golf course.  Sometimes it's about turf; sometimes it's about aesthetics, because there is no way to hide the paths in the landscape; sometimes it is about design decisions you couldn't make if you had to site a path.  [The place where we would have had the most trouble with a cart path at Pacific Dunes, which no one correctly identified, was at the 10th hole; getting a cart path to #11 tee would have either changed the hole or been Godawfully ugly.  We can let 2-3 carts a day drive across the apron of the green to get to that next tee, but if it was many more than that, we'd have had to build a different hole.]

At the same time, I've known people who love the game who just have to take a cart -- and not just seniors -- when we were building Pacific Dunes, we met Casey Martin, who would occasionally come down to Bandon to play with his dad.  I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule.  At the same time, I don't want to ruin the course for all the non-cart people so that every lazy-ass guy can ride.


NOTE:  Aha!  You just posted while I was typing.  I think we are on the same page after all.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Same Page Tom, perhaps  but I fear it’s a different book. 

Melvyn

PS Carts are fine for those who need them for health or age reasons.

[Tim Leahy]

Bob H:

I am not sure I understand your perspective on the issue.  Your example of Pine Valley confused me.  They have a time and a place for carts -- on the little course, not the big one.  Merion takes the same view.  But of course, not every club has the luxury of 36 holes so they can have it both ways.

There are instances where they do take something away from the golf course.  Sometimes it's about turf; sometimes it's about aesthetics, because there is no way to hide the paths in the landscape; sometimes it is about design decisions you couldn't make if you had to site a path.  [The place where we would have had the most trouble with a cart path at Pacific Dunes, which no one correctly identified, was at the 10th hole; getting a cart path to #11 tee would have either changed the hole or been Godawfully ugly.  We can let 2-3 carts a day drive across the apron of the green to get to that next tee, but if it was many more than that, we'd have had to build a different hole.]

At the same time, I've known people who love the game who just have to take a cart -- and not just seniors -- when we were building Pacific Dunes, we met Casey Martin, who would occasionally come down to Bandon to play with his dad.  I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule.  At the same time, I don't want to ruin the course for all the non-cart people so that every lazy-ass guy can ride.


NOTE:  Aha!  You just posted while I was typing.  I think we are on the same page after all.

"I would never want to keep someone like that from being able to play one of my courses because of a no-carts rule. "
But you do. Why not limit the carts on the course  to a certain number or after a certain hour and alow those that can't walk 18 the oportunity to see and play your "walking only" courses. When I started playing golf in the 1970's my home course had no cart paths and still allowed carts without noticable damage, couldn't a limited number of carts being allowed not be damaging?
 

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