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Ari Techner

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Original Punchbowl green?
« on: May 02, 2011, 09:18:24 PM »
What is the earliest known version of the Punchbowl green? 
A recent trip to Deal had me thinking about this.  Their spectacular version has been there since 1892 but Id have to imagine there is an older one.   
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 08:19:59 AM »
Quote from: Ari Techner on May 02, 2011, 09:18:24 PM
What is the earliest known version of the Punchbowl green? 
A recent trip to Deal had me thinking about this.  Their spectacular version has been there since 1892 but Id have to imagine there is an older one.   

Ari,

I think that perhaps the concept was so ubiquitous that it is impossible to identify an "original".

Many greens were deliberately designed in punchbowls to enable water to be retained in days before artificial irrigation. Plenty of them have been designed out in the last 100 years...
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michael damico

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 09:23:45 AM »
Ally,

you bring up a great point; we see all to many greens that have artificial swales adjacent to greens to force water away from the putting surface. What are the detrimental effects of allowing for surface draining over a green? Over a portion of a green?
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Tim Nugent

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 09:59:25 AM »
Quote from: michael damico on May 03, 2011, 09:23:45 AM
Ally,

you bring up a great point; we see all to many greens that have artificial swales adjacent to greens to force water away from the putting surface. What are the detrimental effects of allowing for surface draining over a green? Over a portion of a green?

Inconsistant growing (hence playing) conditions, disease pressures, inviting Poa to establish, and creating ideal conditions for black layer and moss/algea establihment.
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Dan Moore

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 10:24:02 AM »
A view of the Punchbowl 3rd green at Deal.  Bahto in the Evangelist of Golf did not identify a specific hole as the inspiration for Macdonald and the use of the punchbowl green.  Rather he stated it was a common feature on early courses where grasses grew healthier in lower areas.

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Brad Wilbur

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 10:25:55 AM »
New Course at St Andrews #9 is close at 1895.  Great hole!!
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Scott Warren

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 08:02:29 PM »
Dan,

That photo very nearly brings a tear to my eye. Hope all you guys had a great long weekend there.
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JNC Lyon

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 08:15:40 PM »
Dan,

Hope you all had a great time at Deal last weekend.  The Easter weekend last year was an absolute blast.

Have they brought in more greenspace on the front-right of the 3rd?
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Dan Moore

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 10:37:29 AM »
John, Scott,

That photo was taken last year.  I did attend the Brassey again this year and had a blast.  Just a fantastic event and a good time all around with visits to the King's Head, renewing acquantences, etc.    It has been very dry over the pond so far this year so course was very firm, brown in spots and playing magnificently.  Weather was just outstanding, 70 and sunny all week and barely a breeze.  We missed you.  

These may look familiar.







« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:47:15 AM by Dan Moore »
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John Mayhugh

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 10:53:04 AM »
Great photos, Dan.  Especially that one of the third green.
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Scott Warren

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 11:00:38 AM »
That young fella sure is sidling close to Colm in the bottom photo!
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Dan Moore

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 12:38:23 PM »
Quote from: Scott Warren on May 04, 2011, 11:00:38 AM
That young fella sure is sidling close to Colm in the bottom photo!

You mean Chappers roommate for the weekend!! 
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Mark Chaplin

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 03:55:40 PM »
Ah that will be Patrick from Lahinch, top man but incapable of holding down a proper job so needless to say he is a consultant!! Dan deserves praise as he made it to the last eight.

JNC - yes the front right of the third is slowly being expanded. When are you next due to visit us?

Dan - still no rain although it's now slightly cooler and windier.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 04:33:31 PM »
What, no photo of Laura? >:(
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 08:05:54 PM »
I do love a downhill punch bowl. It is so special to watch the ball feed.
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2011, 07:56:42 PM »
I am thinking Cruden Bay could be in contention for the earliest.
That hole at Deal is considered a Punchbowl, with those big hollows front and back??
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Sean_A

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2011, 04:56:35 AM »
RSL III

Yes, Deal's 3rd is a punchbowl.  There isn't really a hollow in the front part of the green.  The run from the crest is pretty steep down to the green.  I would like to see the rear part of the complex become part of the green, but with the grass kept short it defacto is even if a hole can't be cut back there.  This is a terrific hole.

Ciao
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Mark Chaplin

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2011, 05:18:56 AM »
Sean - Which part of the rear of the green do you mean, the left side towards the forth tee?
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2011, 06:30:41 PM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on May 08, 2011, 04:56:35 AM
RSL III

Yes, Deal's 3rd is a punchbowl.  There isn't really a hollow in the front part of the green.  The run from the crest is pretty steep down to the green.  I would like to see the rear part of the complex become part of the green, but with the grass kept short it defacto is even if a hole can't be cut back there.  This is a terrific hole.

Ciao

A pretty looking hole. I wish I could see another photo from a different direction. That photo, to me, is suggesting a sunken plateau, 5 feet or so below the fairway cut to the right. Those shadows on the front and back right are telling me those are hollows.
It looks like a challenging hole and could be fun to play. I would appreciate some help in 'reading' that photo.
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Scott Warren

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2011, 07:11:07 PM »
Ralph,

What could look like a downslope at the back of the green in the picture up top is an optical illusion. The slope at the back is not as steep as those at the front and the sides, but it still runs uphill from the back of the green.

Some more pictures:



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RSLivingston_III

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2011, 07:19:40 PM »
Scott,
Thanks!! Exactly what I needed. Not even close to what that other photo was telling me. I can see how the landforms and the shadows line up with the other. I assume the landforms can more easily by discerned by eye (3D) as opposed to the 2D a camera lens gives.
I wonder if that was originally green-cut in the back.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 07:49:28 PM by RSLivingston_III »
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Dan Moore

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Re: Original Punchbowl green?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2011, 08:02:56 PM »
Scott beat me to it and his first shot gives a good look at the green from about 90 degrees to the line of play,  but in any event here are a couple more. 

Hole is a 455 par 4 where 4 is a very good score. 

View looking toward green from landing zone of the drive.  You can barely see the top of the extended flag.



View from around 135 yards.



View of green looking back along angle of play.  Hole comes in from direction of the large white house on the left and the red roof to the right. 

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