[Tim Martin]

I have watched this guy in a couple of tournaments and been alarmed at his slow play. Is he one of the current poster boys for the human rain delay award and do you have a tendency to root against this type of player?

[David Harshbarger]

I have watched this guy in a couple of tournaments and been alarmed at his slow play. Is he one of the current poster boys for the human rain delay award and do you have a tendency to root against this type of player?

Not if the rest of the match has failed to cure my insomnia.

[Joe Grasty]

I have watched this guy in a couple of tournaments and been alarmed at his slow play. Is he one of the current poster boys for the human rain delay award and do you have a tendency to root against this type of player?

Not if the rest of the match has failed to cure my insomnia.

Ha! I had a good nap during the Zurich this afternoon, as I was up before dawn to play golf.

Slow players don't really matter on TV, unless they're in the lead. Sometimes it is so bad that even the announcers get bored.

[Tim Martin]

I have watched this guy in a couple of tournaments and been alarmed at his slow play. Is he one of the current poster boys for the human rain delay award and do you have a tendency to root against this type of player?

Not if the rest of the match has failed to cure my insomnia.

Ha! I had a good nap during the Zurich this afternoon, as I was up before dawn to play golf.

Slow players don't really matter on TV, unless they're in the lead. Sometimes it is so bad that even the announcers get bored.

Joe-This happened today with Simpson who shared the lead. Peter Kostis remarked that he seemed to be getting slower as the round progressed.

[Brent Hutto]

Why wouldn't he get slower as he goes along? There is absolutely no downside at all to it. Zero. Costs him nothing. And if he enjoys playing slow it just makes him happy and if he's lucky maybe puts some of the other guys off their game because they're pissed off.

Slow play among elite golfers is like spam in your E-mail. Why wouldn't the spammers send out messages constantly? It costs them absolutely nothing and even if one in a million or one in a billion nets a sucker who sends them money (or whatever they want) that's a payoff of one in a billion versus a cost of nothing at all.

At some point, presumably those footing the bill for big-time golf will make it cost something to be a moron like Webb Simpson or Jim Furyk. But obviously it ain't slow enough to matter yet. Maybe when it starts taking the final group in a PGA Tour event 6+ hours to play a round (as it does in high school nowadays) it will matter to those calling the shots. Or maybe not.

[Kevin Jackson]

I was at the Zurich today and Webb Simpson definitely held up play for the guys behind him.  I was at a tent in between the 17th green and 13th green waiting for the last groups to come through.  Camilo came through 17 as Steve Stricker was on 13.  It took another 45 minutes or so for the next group which included Webb Simpson to finish 13, which is a short par-4 that requires a drive, 80-90 yd. pitch, and putt.

[Garland Bayley]

And Webb is paired with Bubba tomorrow. Bubba who likes to play 18 in 2 hours when on his own. I am a big fan of Bubba, so I hope playing slower than molasses in January tomorrow doesn't put him off his game. He should be able to handle it. After all, we saw what he did to the slow playing bomber Holmes in the match play.

[hhuffines]

I usually pass at responding to some of the drivel here but I can assure you that Webb is no moron.

[Brent Hutto]

OK, so he's not a moron. He just plays one on TV.

I should have said "...make it cost something to act moronic like Webb Simpson or Jim Furyk..." instead.

[Garland Bayley]

I usually pass at responding to some of the drivel here but I can assure you that Webb is no moron.

No. He's just plain rude.

[Dan King]

I tried watching him today, but just don't have that kind of patience.

He is doing exactly what the PGA Tour is encouraging him to do. I'm surprised there aren't more Webbs out there.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
 --Henry Longhurst

[Keith OHalloran]

Interstingly enough, he just got a penalty that the announcers blamed on trying to play too quickly.

[Ronald Montesano]

Vote # 2 for moron...

Simpson called the stroke on himself...shades of the great amateur himself.

[Roger Wolfe]

Everyone hates drawn out preshot routines and slow play but when these guy are playing for their livelihoods I cannot blame them for finding which method works better for their game.  It varies from player to player...

Quail Hollow
Jonathan Byrd and Pat Perez.  Byrd took his time on some critical shots on 16, 17 and 18 which he pulled off marvelously.  Perez spent his time pacing and stomping around then, when it was his turn, ran up and wacked the ball.  Byrd smoked him by 4 shots over the 3-hole stretch know as the Green Mile.

Zurich
Webb Simpson and Bubba Watson.  Webb took forever to hit his shots while Bubba just walked to the ball and hit it.  In this case, the fast player pulled it off.

I admire anyone for taking full advantage of the rules when it provides the results they are looking for.  When assigning blame, look no further than the PGA tour.  If they want to speed it up... change the rules.

[Richard Choi]

I blame Byrd for my PVR running out of time before the playoff concluded. Talk about slow...

[Terry Lavin]

I blame Byrd for my PVR running out of time before the playoff concluded. Talk about slow...

I didn't really notice this, to tell you the truth, and I watched a fair amount of the telecast and was transfixed by his somewhat flat swing.  Except for the clubhead speed, it looks pretty repeatable for a decent hacker to imitate.

As for Webb Simpson, fuhgeddaboudit, he's ridiculous.

[Dan King]

Roger Wolfe writes:
I admire anyone for taking full advantage of the rules when it provides the results they are looking for.  When assigning blame, look no further than the PGA tour.  If they want to speed it up... change the rules.

I agree. I think it is a shame that rude golfers can't be handled internally, but it is a fact of life that as they play for hundreds of thousands of dollars peer pressure is no longer going to work. The only way to solve this problem is for the PGA Tour to add some rules. If I were in charge I'd put them on a 10 second clock. I don't really care how difficult of a shot you have, once it is your turn, hit the ball in 10 seconds or less. You want to take more time than that, go ahead, just you will be penalized a shot every ten seconds.

It sure would be a lot more fun to watch.

Cheers,
Dan King

They ought to invoke the same-day rule.
 --Paul Azinger (on the slow play of the Langer/Faldo team at the 1995 Ryder Cup)

[Brent Hutto]

With the amount of (volunteer, free) labor being expended at a PGA Tour event and the amount of technology (i.e. ShotLink) deployed there's no reason they couldn't implement a cumulative time per player. Something akin to a chess match clock except with the someone other than the player hitting the clicker.

Take Dan's 10 seconds, multiply by 100 shots (generous for these guys) per round and pause the clock while they're walking between shots or waiting on the group ahead of them. So if you want to be able to dick around for three minutes on the Par 3 teess trying to decide if the breeze is 8mph helping or 4mph hurting or reading putts from all seven sides of the hole you'd better be pulling the trigger in 3-4 seconds on all those other shots.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

You folks do realize that there is a time limit on shots, right? Granted it only applies if you are out of position, but still.

Fact is, with as many players and groups as you have on course, its going to be slow. The Nationwide Tour event this past weekend had 38 tee times on Sunday. At some point in time through the round, time is going to be lost through the groups, time searching for a lost ball, drops from hazards, and so forth. If the first group in the day plays in 3:30, I think its fairly generous to say that only 1 hour will be lost through 38 groups to the end of the day, so you're looking at 4:30 for the final group, probably worse than that. Yes, players are slow, no doubt. But if they keep pace with the group in front and you manage to get the first group of the day off in 3:30 or 3:45 (which is not nearly an option during the week with a 2 tee start) then what else can you do?

[Richard Choi]

Jamie, the playoff hole took about 25+ min to play (my PVR ran out of time, so I don't know the exact duration). You cannot use the excuse about having players in the front for that one. The way Byrd walked off the yardages over and over again and taking 4 or 5 min to decide what to do was not unusual compare to rest of his round that day.

It is really atrocious how slow these guys play.

I understand they are playing for a lot of money but every other sport athletes perform under tremendous time pressure, for may be even more money. PGA tour is a joke when it comes to time management.

[Brent Hutto]

The guys on the field taking the final snap of the Super Bowl are playing for a lot of money. Yet the same play clock is running as runs any other play of any other NFL game.

Likewise the guy standing over an 8-foot putt to win the US Open has the same play clock running as some guy you never heard of playing the first hole on Thursday.

The difference is that the NFL play clock makes them, you know, play football. The equivalent of the "play clock" for PGA Tour golf has no discernible effect on the speed of the game. As evinced by the copious amount of time player after player after player spends doing what an impartial observer would describe as nothing to do with advancing the ball toward the hole.

In both cases the entity putting on the show gets exactly the pace of play they want. The NFL complains that games run "over" too often but in the end it seems to match up to what a few hundred million people want to watch every time it's on TV. The PGA Tour provides helpful commentators to urge players to play even slower than they are playing. I know which one I watch.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Mr. Hutto your thoughts on the shot-clock or play-clock are slightly misplaced. I once saw the Naval Academy take nearly 15 minutes to move the ball from their own 20 yard line to the end zone. They took possession with like 2 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter and didn't score until there was about 2:30 on the clock in the 4th. So that game can be played as slowly as you like as well.

Simply put, even if you put a time limit on shots, golf will still take forever in these tournaments. There is just nothing you can do to change it.

[Dale_McCallon]

Jamie,

I think Brent's analogy fits perfectly. Yours is the one that doesn't fit. USNA is a run dominated team so the "game clock" is still running the entire time. Even after a tackle, the game clock is still moving. I believe Brent's point is once the ball is set, teams have 30 seconds to play. Doesn't matter if it takes them an entire half, they do have set times.

Please explain why players couldn't be put on a clock?  Your ball is in play...your time to hit....clock starts now!

[Dan King]

Jamie Van Gisbergen  writes:
Fact is, with as many players and groups as you have on course, its going to be slow. The Nationwide Tour event this past weekend had 38 tee times on Sunday. At some point in time through the round, time is going to be lost through the groups, time searching for a lost ball, drops from hazards, and so forth. If the first group in the day plays in 3:30, I think its fairly generous to say that only 1 hour will be lost through 38 groups to the end of the day, so you're looking at 4:30 for the final group, probably worse than that.

I'd make the first group of the day play in 2:00 hours not 3:30. I also do not believe each group must play slower than the previous group. Especially in a twosome taking as long as 3:30 minutes to play 18. The group behind them better be keeping up at that snail's pace. At 3:30, even if you lose a whole bunch of balls (which doesn't happen all that often in a professional tournament) you should be able to walk a bit faster and still catch up with the group ahead of you playing at a 3:30 pace.

Yes, players are slow, no doubt. But if they keep pace with the group in front and you manage to get the first group of the day off in 3:30 or 3:45 (which is not nearly an option during the week with a 2 tee start) then what else can you do?

Penalty shots. A kid with a stopwatch with every group. Take more than ten seconds to make your shot, add a stroke. Players will figure out how to play the game at a faster pace -- and by example the rest of the world will stop taking forever to play their shot ahead of me.

Cheers,
Dan King

Cyril Walker played so slowly they asked him to hurry up, and he became abusive. He said, "Who the hell are you? I'm, an ex-U.S. Open Champion." This was about 1931, he won the Open in 1924. He said he came out 3,000 miles to play in their diddy-bump tournament (L.A. Open), and they couldn't kick him out, he'd play as slow as he damn well pleased. Well, when he came ot the ninth hole, they told him he was disqualified and he said, "The hell I am! I came here to play and I'm going to play." So these two officers picked him up by the elbows and I can still see him being carried up the hill, kicking his legs like a banty -- he was a small man.
 --Paul Runyan

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie,

I think Brent's analogy fits perfectly. Yours is the one that doesn't fit. USNA is a run dominated team so the "game clock" is still running the entire time. Even after a tackle, the game clock is still moving. I believe Brent's point is once the ball is set, teams have 30 seconds to play. Doesn't matter if it takes them an entire half, they do have set times.

Please explain why players couldn't be put on a clock?  Your ball is in play...your time to hit....clock starts now!

They could, most certainly. But how does it help if they get to their balls and have to wait several minutes prior to being on that clock? If groups are in position, there is nothing you can do; when they are out of position they are put on the clock right now as is.

Tell you what, go to your local golf club on a busy Saturday (or any day) and clock the first group off, see how long it takes them to play. Then clock the 38th group of the day, see how long it took them, this only really works if the tee times were solid through the whole day. See how much time is lost, I am going to bet that the 38th or 40th group of the day takes at least 1 hour longer to play than the first, any course, any where. That happens on the tour as well. How do you go about preventing 1, 2, 3 minutes per group being lost through the round? It happens. You pack a course full with consecutive tee times like that and you WILL have lost time and slow play come the afternoon.

And just say you do give the guys only 30 seconds to hit a shot. What if someone sneezes? Some mouth breather snaps a picture? A biting fly goes in your ear or lands on your ball? Shadows in the crowd, general movement in the crowd, what then? Penalize a guy a shot because some nice lady in the gallery accidentally sneezed in his back swing?

No, the simple fact is as long as guys can keep pace with the group in front, there is nothing more that can be done. Get the first group of the day around in 3:30 or 3:45 and then every group keep up and not get any spacing between the groups. Simply nothing more you can do.

And by the way, how many who have commented here, this thread only, have played on one of the major tours, or are a rules official for a major tour, caddied on one of the tours, etc., to really comment on how they deal with pace of play?

Mr. King how in God's creation do you intend to get a group around the course in 2 hours? That is simply unreasonable. When was the last time you and a friend played a round of golf, walking, and finished in 2 hours? I am closing in on being 33 years old, I've played golf since I was 5. I will promise you that I can count on one hand the number of rounds I have played in 2 hours or less, even as a single, and I have played over 100 rounds per year for nearly the past 20 years. To even think a group of golfers can get around the course in 2 hours is preposterous. No offense, sir, but you are simply delusional if you think that is reasonable.

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