[Niall C]

Niall,

The club I'm referring to is St. Andrew's Golf Club, subject of the article and thread!  I was a member there, as I mentioned.

I also belong to RD, and have for 10+ years. I've traveled widely in Scotland to play golf and have a solid understanding of how many clubs have separate gender organizations.

While St. Andrew's Golf Club has allowed women in the clubhouse for a very long time, they have not permitted them in the main bar area...basically the most central and normal place ALL would generally wish to use after their golf to converse, share a drink or get a nibble. Again, it's simply a silly, exclusionary policy. They're finally going to correct it and I'm glad, even if it took a governmental law to prompt the change.

Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right. In the states, many clubs and facilities stuff their caddies in idiotic white suits that are uncomfortable and degrading. Much of this is due to the misguided rationale that because Augusta does it, it's the way to go. How disgusting!

That white suit crap is a vestige of the racial prejudice era and needs to go! If you look at footage of the early Masters there were no white suits. The caddies wore normal clothes and many looked not much different than the players. Someone decided that the caddies needed to be put in their place and that white suit sure looks good against that dark skin of the caddies, almost all of which were black up until recently.

Spare me the... they look professional, it easier to tell who is a caddie, is simplifies the dress code etc.  EVERYONE with one ounce of reason knows it's all B.S. Will Augusta ever be big enough to burn the white suits? It saddened me to hear Ben Crenshaw's caddie talk about his fifty years at the Masters there and describe the "proper" uniform that Mr. Roberts had stipulated they wear. He said he was going to keep it on for a while after his final round this year. I recognize the pride he had being an Augusta caddie, but it's pathetic that he defined his place by that suit. Now he was always well treated and enjoyed a special relationship with some members most other caddies didn't, so he may not have experienced the sting so many others have. But to not understand what it really stood for and represented was revealing.

If one looks at the practical responses made throughout this thread, it appears we are headed in the right direction, but there is a long way to go, both in the game and society in general. Let us all keep striving to improve both in our own small ways

Cheers,
Kris

Kris

I agree with a lot of your post particularly about the caddies in white boiler suits. The only good thing about them is that once a year you get to see Steve Williams squirm when he has to wear one  .

You are right that a lot of these rules and regs are from years ago and that doesn't make them right, but it doesn't necessarily make them wrong either. And the important thing they are within the gift of the membership to change.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall, Marty et. al,

Here's the problem.  Sure it's fine to say it's a private club and I respect their right to legally do whatever the hell they like.  Freedom from government control and all that.  In the states there are male clubs where women aren't allowed to set foot on the grounds (Chicago I believe has the most in the country).  Here's the rub.  Imagine that the best golf course and/or most desirable social club in your area is male only.  Now imagine that prominent business people entertain clients there (surely not much of a stretch).  Now imagine that the most promising potential client in town is an aspiring golfer who'd give his left nut to play the aforementioned course or socialize at said club and might well be swayed to throw some business toward the salesman who got him out there.  Now imagine that the two best salespeople in town are a man and a women, both avid golfers.  See the problem of access and discrimination?  And don't tell me that a round at Palmetto vs. a round at Augusta National will have the same effect on the client...I'll wait for someone to intelligently refute that logic...

Jud,

You beat me to it. Well done. But it is not just the business with guests, it is also the business kept within the club members that inhibits commerce for those left out.

I just finished Warren Buffet's biography. In Omaha, he wanted to get a Jewish friend into his club. His approach was to get the all jewish club to admit him as a member, and then he sponsored the Jewish friend into his club having already eliminated their excuse for not admitting him.

Jud/Garland,

This is certainly one of the most convoluted examples I can think of to justify why a group of people shouldn't do something that is perfectly legal, at least in this country. It probably also highlights a main difference between the US and the UK, over here people tend to join clubs to play golf, not because its part of business.

And let me say again, the club I was referring to allows both female guests and visitors into both the clubhouse and the course.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Niall,

Are you saying that people in the UK don't play golf with business associates and clients at their clubs? And never discuss business while doing so?

[Niall C]

Jud

I'm saying that people join clubs to play golf with friends. Yes, on occasion someone brings a purely business associate to the club as a guest but in my experience that is rare. What is more likely that businesses of a decent size might have a corporate membership at one of the flagship commercial set ups like Turnberry or Gleneagles. For instance I suspect the amount of money that the main banks spent in corporate membership at those places pre credit crunch would have kept the average members clubs going twice over. Even then I'll bet those memberships were routinely "abused" by employees of the company in question taking on their pals without any reference to business.

Possibly I've got a scewed idea of what happens over here and others might think differently but I suspect not. Maybe its a cultural thing or just the nature of the clubs here as opposed to the US, don't know.

Niall

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Must agree with you. We do, or I should say that I no longer go but my brother attends about 4-6  corporate days a year, but turns down a lot more. It depends on where it is being played and how he feels, otherwise he just playing with friends at local clubs.

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

Niall,

People join here for the same reasons generally.

[Kris Shreiner]

Niall,

Good one on the Stevie squirm!   At the end of the day there are choices we all can make. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with. My take is if the person or people are good eggs and solid company, why should they not be permitted in some where? Seems to be more about a perscribed mindset of what peer group one should be consorting with to me. I've got no time for that, but hey, to each his own.

Cheers,
Kris

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kris

You are spot on – all you have to do is look to this sites membership for that, surprised you joined, seeking advancement perhaps.

Melvyn

[Ian_L]

I've become friends with women in a purely plutonic way

Are you in the atom bomb building business?  (sorry, Kalen, couldn't resist...)

I like Kalen's thought that it is fine to seek out people like you, but that drawing that line at gender is a bit too simplistic.  There certainly are women (albeit a small fraction) who would fit in well in the setting of many currently all-male clubs.  The problem is that those members lump women into the "other" group to make things simpler, as perhaps only 1-2% of women would be good candidates.

Personally, I rarely if ever feel the need to be in an all-male setting, as my demeanor and opinions are the same no matter who accompanies me. However, I know that others are different and act quite differently around their buddies than they do at home (I am not judging here).  For this reason, I understand the reasons behind all-male clubs, although ideally gender should not be absolutely what defines like-minded people.

I do think female and male visitors should have the same rights at clubs (besides bathrooms and lockers, of course).  What would people think if black people were barred from the restaurant?  Or if you needed to have a certain yearly salary to be allowed?

[John Kavanaugh]

How do you who protest these clubs accept invitations to play at same?  Why would you associate with someone who does? 

[Jud_T]

How do you who protest these clubs accept invitations to play at same?  Why would you associate with someone who does?  

Interesting point JK,

I'll readily admit that I believe I've played all the male-only clubs in my area at least once, primarily out of interest to check out the courses, yet my moral compass, and certainly my wife's, would preclude me from ever joining any of them.  It's a bit of a murky area to be sure.  I honestly find it to be an interesting ethical question.  On the one hand, I don't like the government mucking about into one's personal life and I think anyone should be free to do whatever the hell they like so long as it doesn't harm others.  The question here is whether or not it does in fact harm others and I think valid arguments can be made on both sides of the coin...I'd love to hear some of our resident legal scholars chime in on the ethical issue involved beyond freedom to associate in a private club setting.  I know for instance that Merrill Lynch now forbids it's employees from taking clients to play at such clubs.

[Mike Hendren]

I must defer to the wise Isley Brothers:

It's yo thang, do watcha wanna do.

Bogey

[Brent Hutto]

If I avoided associating with everyone who holds to a cultural or political idea that I find objectionable I'd have to quit my job, pretty much play golf by myself and avoid most family get-togethers. Fortunately I do not require all of my associates or even my friends to agree with me on everything. That presumes of course that we're talking about people who can go about their daily life without trying to pick arguments over every such disagreement.

I've visited at least one club that allows no women members. I enjoyed my day there and would gladly return. If asked by a member of the club how I felt about the men-only policy I suppose I'd say I do not agree with it but I honestly can't imagine being asked. Such a club doesn't give a fig about my attitude toward their membership policies.

[John Kavanaugh]

If I avoided associating with everyone who holds to a cultural or political idea that I find objectionable I'd have to quit my job, pretty much play golf by myself and avoid most family get-togethers. Fortunately I do not require all of my associates or even my friends to agree with me on everything. That presumes of course that we're talking about people who can go about their daily life without trying to pick arguments over every such disagreement.

I've visited at least one club that allows no women members. I enjoyed my day there and would gladly return. If asked by a member of the club how I felt about the men-only policy I suppose I'd say I do not agree with it but I honestly can't imagine being asked. Such a club doesn't give a fig about my attitude toward their membership policies.

Brent, then I take it that you agree with me that this is not the same as excluding for either race or religion.  I can not imagine you "gladly returning" to a club which practices such.  It bothers me to see someone who would sell out on their beliefs for something so little as play at a golf course. That is far worse than having no beliefs at all.

[Jud_T]

JK,

That's a whole Pandora's box of stuff you got there...Most country clubs in my neck of the woods are historically segregated by religion which is still essentially self-reinforcing, and race was a nonstarter.  Not to mention restrictions on women playing at certain times etc.  One of the main reasons I'm more of a golf club guy than a country club guy...Michael Jordan often played as a guest at a famous club in my hood, one often lauded here for it's excellent GCA.  He was told he could play as a guest as often as he'd like but he'd never become a member.  I'm sure the fact that he's African-American had nothing to do with it....

[Brent Hutto]

I would not play as a visitor or guest at a club that does not allow women to play as visitors or guests. Likewise if it were black or Jewish visitors or guests. I would not join a club that does not allow women or some other group to join as members. I do not, however, consider the membership policy (were I even privy to it in the first place) of a club in my decision whether to use their golf course.

You may label that sell-out or whatever you want. I'm not sure what exactly I would be "selling" as such clubs do not desire my approval for their beliefs just because I'm invited to spend four hours there one day. I suspect you're one of very few people who would attempt to construe a round of golf as an endorsement of every aspect of the club's business.

Hey, I've never attended The Masters tournament even though I live just a couple hours up the road. Can I claim retroactive moral bonus points for that as a "protest" of their not having women members?

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