[Bill Ward]

So which is better--

Troy Burne
Stoneridge
Big Fish   

Are they all walkable? 

[Jason Topp]

So which is better--

Troy Burne
Stoneridge
Big Fish   

Are they all walkable? 

I have walked all three.  All are walkable but none are an easy walk.  Not much to choose between the three on that front.  I would consider Big Fish the best of the three by a nose over Stoneridge and a length over Troy Burne.  All three are perfectly enjoyable courses.

[Dan Kelly]

I have walked all three.  All are walkable but none are an easy walk.  Not much to choose between the three on that front.  I would consider Big Fish the best of the three by a nose over Stoneridge and a length over Troy Burne.  All three are perfectly enjoyable courses.

Agreed. None is a great course; none is, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, a dog.

But this post (and your 15-2-1 StoneRidge-over-Troy Burne scorecard) is especially interesting to me -- because ...

I might, after playing them both again, see your points. And I might agree that Big Fish is better than either of them, after playing all three of them again.

But, seeing that hole-by-hole match-play thing, I'm thinking: That's not how I "judge" golf courses. I don't "judge" them by the architectural merits of their holes, solely or even almost solely. I "judge" them by a blend of factors that include the hole-by-hole merits -- but the blend includes at least as large a component for "aesthetics."

StoneRidge takes a big dive, for me, there. The land on which it sits just doesn't appeal to my eye (or my ears, with the whirr of the highway traffic). Among these three, it's an easy call in the Aesthetics department, for me:

1. Big Fish
2. Troy Burne
3. StoneRidge

All things being equal (or even close; I'm pretty sure I would think it's closer than 15-2-1, in either direction), I'll take pretty land, and handsome views.

Dan

[Jeff Shelman]

Jason, Dan, and others:

I guess I also don't look at a hole-by-hole basis either.

I think both Troy Burne and StoneRidge are both very good golf courses. Both courses have a couple of clunker holes. I don't like the first hole at StoneRidge as it is kind of a nothing hole. I don't like the super short par 3 on the back at Troy Burne and don't really like the short par 5 on the back (No. 12?). Both also have a number of good holes.

I may be a bit biased on this one as I have played Troy Burne more frequently and I have only played StoneRidge once. I like that Troy Burne usually plays pretty firm and reasonably fast. When I played StoneRidge last season, it was super wet and over watered during a time of the year when we hadn't had an over abundance of rain.

At the end of the day, we're debating the merits of two golf courses that are quite good. It's not like we're talking about Theo Wirth and Hollydale.

[Dan Kelly]

I don't like the first hole at StoneRidge as it is kind of a nothing hole.

Disagree.

For the really long hitters, it's driveable -- and screwuppable.

For almost everyone, it's a welcoming opener and a potential birdie hole (though I don't recall many birdies there, among the 20-30 players I've seen play the hole). The fall-away approach and front of the green encourages a ground-game approach, and it's always been firm enough when I've played there to make a bouncing approach work.

There are plenty of plenty demanding holes ahead on the course. I like No. 1 at SR.

[Jay Flemma]

Big Fish and Northland.

If you can get on, don't miss ROSS'S work at White Bear Yacht, and don't believe the hype about them being unfriendly, HG and I had a marvelous day there.  It was far and away the best course I played in Minnesota, and I played Minnekada, Hazeltine, and Interlachen too...

[Rick Shefchik]

Here's how I see the comparison between StoneRidge and Troy Burn, and I have to admit I was surprised when I totaled it up:

#1 -- SR over TB. I could be persuaded that Troy Burn #1 is a better hole -- tougher, for sure, even though it's a par 5 -- but I like #1 at StoneRidge better. Seems to me I've had a putt for birdie 80 percent of the time I've played that hole, though I've probably birdied it just a couple of times. I like starting that way; I like a first hole that doesn't demand four good shots, or else I'm over par out of the chute.

#2 -- SR over TB. Troy Burn's second hole is an killer, a long par 4 with water all the way down the left and bunkers right; I rarely see anyone hit in two shots. It's easy to be three over par after two on this course.

#3 -- SR over TB. Troy's third is a straightforward par 3, usually a not-too-demanding 7 iron, though the hogbacked green is a good one. But #3 4 at SR is one of the most interesting shorter par 4's I've played. The cross bunker on the right can be carried by a long hitter, but to me it makes more sense to hit driver left of it or lay up short of it. Trouble is, if you're too long left of the cross bunker, you're in a large waste area, and if you lay up, your approach to the green is blind. The green is long and narrow, falling away front, left and right. A very cool hole, I think.

#4 -- TB over SR. Troy's #4 is a shorter version of SR's #3, where you've got to lay up short of the bunker at the end of the fairway, or really thread a drive over a ridge and away from the bunkers to a blind green. Way more fun that the par 5 at SR, where you can't reach the green in two, and your approach is do-or-die to a plateau green with a front edge that falls some 30 feet back to the fairway, and has a pot bunker and gnarly weeds behind.

#5 -- Draw between the par 5 at TB and the par 4 at SR. I think they're both outstanding holes. Specifically, the par 5 at TB is what #4 at SR should be: long and demanding some accurary, but with a green that better accepts a third shot; and the par 4 at SR is what #2 at Troy should be: long, demanding two really well-hit shots, but with a big green to which you can, and probably should, play a ground-game approach.

#6 -- SR over TB, though I like both holes. Trouble with the par 4 at Troy is that is a little too much like #4, and its green is probably a little too severe. It's more strategic than the par 4 at SR, but I have to give extra credit for the biarritz green at SR #6.

#7 -- Draw. Hard to compare a par 3 with a serious false front that almost plays like a redan (hell, I guess it is a redan, given the way the green runs to the back) to a par 4 from an elevated tee that requires a straight tee shot between well placed fairway bunkers. I like them both.

#8 -- SR over TB. I've never particularly liked the uphill par 3 at Troy -- just doesn't do much for me, seeing as how I need to hit driver there most days now. SR's uphill par 4 is a quirky hole, almost a double dogleg with no trees, just fairway bunkers, and a well-placed drive can give you an easy wedge to the green, but if you play for the fat part of the fairway, you'll have a really tough angle into the two-tiered green.

#9 -- Sr over TB. I like the par 3 at SR; it's got an interesting island green, pushed up and surrounded by bunkers. No ground game here. TB's par-4 9th is too damned long. Driver, three-wood, wedge for me, unless there's a howling wind behind me.

My preferences on the back nines would be:

10 -- SR (noplace to drive your ball at TB)
11 -- SR (Barn hole should be a birdie every time, but that damn two-tier green is tough and well-defended)
12 -- TB (Par 5 at Troy should be a birdie every time, but see previous comment)
13 -- SR (though I wish I'd played the "reachable" 13th at SR when I was capable of reaching it)
14 -- TB (too do-or-die on the SR par-3. The recovery shot from the waste area down below on the right to the elevated green is a shot nobody should have to play.)
15 -- SR (not a great par 3 at Troy; really fun downhill drive and very tough uphill second shot at SB)
16 -- TB (it's just a slug off the tee to an odd three-tiered green on the par-3 at SR; the par 5 at TB takes length and placement)
17 -- Draw (both approaches are dangerous, both holes can be birdied)
18 -- TB (A little easier to get home in two, of the two long par 4s. I always figure you should have a chance at a birdie on the last hole)

So that makes it 10-5-3 for StoneRidge. I guess I strongly prefer SR's front nine, and figure it's about equal on the back nines.

 

[Tim Book]

Bill,

It looks like you have received a ton of good info, so far.  My buddies and I did the Jeff Brauer trail last summer.  Started with a Twin's game at the new Target field and then ventured up to Giants Ridge.  We played the Quarry the first day, which was the best course on our trip.  If I had to do it all over again I would schedule a replay there.  The next day we played Wilderness @ Fortune and the Legend @ Giant's Ridge.  I have to admit that Wilderness was a little less dramatic than I had hoped it was going to be.  Legend was a solid track.  We then drove across to play Deacon's Lodge.  Deacon's was a good course.  The day we played it was windy and I played like sh&^%t.  Even with my poor play I would definately go back.  We finished our trip @ the Classic @ Madden's.  Great conditioned course.  All of the courses were solid, but the Quarry was the must play.  The par 5 second hole is still fresh in my memories after nearly a year.  Hope that is of some help.

[Jason Topp]

But, seeing that hole-by-hole match-play thing, I'm thinking: That's not how I "judge" golf courses. I don't "judge" them by the architectural merits of their holes, solely or even almost solely. I "judge" them by a blend of factors that include the hole-by-hole merits -- but the blend includes at least as large a component for "aesthetics."

StoneRidge takes a big dive, for me, there. The land on which it sits just doesn't appeal to my eye (or my ears, with the whirr of the highway traffic). Among these three, it's an easy call in the Aesthetics department, for me:


Dan

I totally understand the ambiance factor.  Troy Burne evens the score some on that front but is far from ideal for my tastes either.  I always think of the first 8 holes at Stoneridge to be cramped but if you go hole by hole I think each one is very good with the exception of 8.

[Jason Topp]

Here's how I see the comparison between StoneRidge and Troy Burn, and I have to admit I was surprised when I totaled it up:

#4 -- TB over SR. Troy's #4 is a shorter version of SR's #3, where you've got to lay up short of the bunker at the end of the fairway, or really thread a drive over a ridge and away from the bunkers to a blind green. Way more fun that the par 5 at SR, where you can't reach the green in two, and your approach is do-or-die to a plateau green with a front edge that falls some 30 feet back to the fairway, and has a pot bunker and gnarly weeds behind.

#5 -- Draw between the par 5 at TB and the par 4 at SR. I think they're both outstanding holes. Specifically, the par 5 at TB is what #4 at SR should be: long and demanding some accurary, but with a green that better accepts a third shot; and the par 4 at SR is what #2 at Troy should be: long, demanding two really well-hit shots, but with a big green to which you can, and probably should, play a ground-game approach.

#7 -- Draw. Hard to compare a par 3 with a serious false front that almost plays like a redan (hell, I guess it is a redan, given the way the green runs to the back) to a par 4 from an elevated tee that requires a straight tee shot between well placed fairway bunkers. I like them both.

#8 -- SR over TB. I've never particularly liked the uphill par 3 at Troy -- just doesn't do much for me, seeing as how I need to hit driver there most days now. SR's uphill par 4 is a quirky hole, almost a double dogleg with no trees, just fairway bunkers, and a well-placed drive can give you an easy wedge to the green, but if you play for the fat part of the fairway, you'll have a really tough angle into the two-tiered green.

#9 -- Sr over TB. I like the par 3 at SR; it's got an interesting island green, pushed up and surrounded by bunkers. No ground game here. TB's par-4 9th is too damned long. Driver, three-wood, wedge for me, unless there's a howling wind behind me.

My preferences on the back nines would be:

12 -- TB (Par 5 at Troy should be a birdie every time, but see previous comment)

14 -- TB (too do-or-die on the SR par-3. The recovery shot from the waste area down below on the right to the elevated green is a shot nobody should have to play.)
15 -- SR (not a great par 3 at Troy; really fun downhill drive and very tough uphill second shot at SB)
16 -- TB (it's just a slug off the tee to an odd three-tiered green on the par-3 at SR; the par 5 at TB takes length and placement)
17 -- Draw (both approaches are dangerous, both holes can be birdied)
18 -- TB (A little easier to get home in two, of the two long par 4s. I always figure you should have a chance at a birdie on the last hole)

So that makes it 10-5-3 for StoneRidge. I guess I strongly prefer SR's front nine, and figure it's about equal on the back nines.

 

Thanks Rick.  We disagree on 11 of the 18 holes but wind up with similar totals which is interesting.  Here is my take on the holes for which we have differences:

4.  I like the hole at TB but love the long par five at SR.  Every shot presents interesting options - off the tee do you take on the bunker or hit it wide, on the second do you make sure and get it in the fairway or get it as close as possible to the green.  There is ample incentive to be aggressive because of the severity of the benched in green which is much easier to hit from 80 yards than it is from 160.  I think the pieces of the hole work incredibly well together and differently every day depending on the wind.

5.  Understand your view of a draw but the hole at SR is one of my favorite long par fours anywhere.  The area in front of the green is unique and much more interesting to me than the TB hole.

7 - I could go in either direction on this one.  I don't think the redan at SR is a great one and I always enjoy that downhill hole at TB.

8.  I am not a huge fan of the TB hole but the SR hole is a bit too awkward for my tastes. 

9.  I really like the hole at TB.  Another good long par four.  I like the SR hole but do not think it is in the same class.

12.  I think the SR hole is one of the best on the course - easy to hit in 3 but requires aggressive lines for me to get there in 2.  Driving distance can vary by 100 yards depending on weather.  The TB hole is too awkward for my tastes off the tee - I really should just lay up but never do.  Nationwide guys would hit it over to 14 fairway depending on the pin.

14.  I think you underrate the tee shot at SR- which can either be flown to the hole or run to a back pin using slopes at the front left of the green.  I do like the TB hole but not as much.

15 - I go both ways on the TB hole.  I think the green is terrific and really puts pressure on the player to hit the correct section when the greens are fast.  I like the SR hole as well but it is really comparing apples and oranges and therefore I called it a draw.

16 - The SR green is very complex and one of the more interesting around.  If you hit it left of the hole you have a chance.  Bailing out right is tough.  Of course the massive bunkers are left.

17 - I like the TB hole but it is a severe water hole which is not generally my favorite type of hole.  The par five at SR is one of the best short par fives around.  I like it from a more forward tee or downwind making reaching the green a possibility.

18.  The closing green at SR is one of the best around - particularly with a back pin.  The significant front to back slope that feeds to that location has changes many matches.  Again - the length rewards an aggressive tee shot.  18 at TB is to my mind your standard long par 4 to an elevated green.



.....

I wish the weather was better.

[Jim Franklin]

Big Fish and Northland.

If you can get on, don't miss ROSS'S work at White Bear Yacht, and don't believe the hype about them being unfriendly, HG and I had a marvelous day there.  It was far and away the best course I played in Minnesota, and I played Minnekada, Hazeltine, and Interlachen too...

When did you play there? They were unbelieveably unfriendly a few years ago.

[Dan Kelly]

... don't miss ROSS'S work at White Bear Yacht...

Don't miss Willie Watson's work there, either.

Or Tom Vardon's.

It's all good.

And be SURE not to miss the chapter on WBYC in Rick Shefchik's forthcoming book on Minnesota's classic golf clubs.

Might even be some news in it!

[Dan Kelly]

4.  I like the hole at TB but love the long par five at SR.  Every shot presents interesting options - off the tee do you take on the bunker or hit it wide, on the second do you make sure and get it in the fairway or get it as close as possible to the green.  There is ample incentive to be aggressive because of the severity of the benched in green which is much easier to hit from 80 yards than it is from 160.  I think the pieces of the hole work incredibly well together and differently every day depending on the wind.

8.  I am not a huge fan of the TB hole but the SR hole is a bit too awkward for my tastes.  

14.  I think you underrate the tee shot at SR- which can either be flown to the hole or run to a back pin using slopes at the front left of the green.  I do like the TB hole but not as much.

I wish the weather was better.

A few reactions -- and, again, I've not played Troy Burne often enough (twice) even to remember all of the hole numbers, much less to make any statements about it ... except that, unlike either of you, I liked the uphill par-3 No. 8.

I'm with Rick on the 4th at SR. Why? Jason says: "There is ample incentive to be aggressive because of the severity of the benched in green which is much easier to hit from 80 yards than it is from 160." I would say it's virtually impossible to hit that green from 160 -- and the punishments for missing it are severe. That being the case, I don't think there's much of any option on the second shot but to hit the damn thing as far down there as you can -- to get to Wedgeland.

I like the 8th at StoneRidge. To my mind, it's way less "awkward" than No. 4.

I'm with Jason on SR 14. I think it's a really good hole -- and the unthinkable miss short-right is, well, obviously unthinkable. Unlike No. 4, there's plenty of opportunity to avoid the unthinkable and make par.

The weather will be better. The weather will be better. The weather will be better.

[Matthew Sander]

I'm enjoying the back and forth regarding these two courses. Unfortunately, when we lived in Mnpls I didn't make it over to play either course. In retrospect, I should have in lieu of a round at Edinburgh USA or Rush Creek...

[Bill Ward]

I really appreciate all this info.  Sounds like I could spend a whole summer there and still not really scratch the surface.  There are now at least seven courses that I really want to play and won't have time to. 

And if it's any consolation to you guys in the midwest--I live in California and it's about 70 degrees right now but I've got 6 stitches in the crook of my elbow and can't swing a golf club. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

And no one even mentioned Stanley Thompsons course......

[Dan Kelly]

And no one even mentioned Stanley Thompsons course......

We didn't mention a bunch of very fine private courses. It's not really our place to, is it?

(That Stanley Thompson course Jeff mentions is North Oaks, by the way -- as updated by Tom Lehman. Haven't played it since the work was done. It was a good course five years ago; I'm guessing it's better now.)

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