[Patrick_Mucci]

Piping Rock ?

CBM wanted many of the golf holes to be sited on the land reserved for the polo fields and track.

Piping Rock didn't want to cede him that land, forcing him instead, to work around and afar from the polo fields.

The polo fields are dead flat.

The surrounding terrain is very interesting with elevation changes and plenty of variety.

It appears that Piping Rock got it right.

The course is unique, challenging and enjoyable.

Unless CBM intended to "manufacture" holes on the polo fields, I can't see how he could have introduced holes that would compare favorably with the existing holes.

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

Do you know for a fact that the land where the polo fields now sit was dead flat at the time CBM was asked to design the course?

It is possible that land might have had some movement at that time the golf course was designed and was subsequently graded to be "dead flat" for the polo fields?

DT

[Chip Gaskins]

Pat-

I agree, the land around the polo field is much much more interesting.  Macdonald's ego probably just didn't want to have to give in to polo.  If he looked at the property objectively (without being told he had to give the central section up for polo) he probably would have chosen many of those same land features to utilize (#3, #11, #12, etc..), though maybe not the exact same routing.

As we discussed yesterday, and I know we disagree on this, but it is my favorite MacRaynor course.

David-

You are probably correct, most of the land around the course has a fair amount of elevation change, but it would be hard to imagine the massive earth moving process that it would have taken to get the polo field that flat.  I always assumed it was graded to some extent but was for the most part a nature valley to begin with and fairly flat.

PS.  Does anyone know when the faux chocolate drop bumps and mounds were put in around some of the greens? (#7 comes to mind)?  I assume that was a Dye addition some time back?

[Jed Peters]

Pat-

Not sure, but I know what is out there is a gem. The neat thing for me was the "building" nature of the golf course, as I said, it just kept getting better and better as I went through the round.

Pretty cool deal; can't wait to see the place later this year after the 100 year anniversary stuff is completed..

Regarding the polo grounds, I'm not sure what could have been build other than maybe 1 and 2 coming in differently, with say, a closer returning 9 and 10 teeing ground in front of the old clubhouse possibly?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat M. -

Do you know for a fact that the land where the polo fields now sit was dead flat at the time CBM was asked to design the course?


Yes, they were polo fields, not a steeplechase course.

Have you ever played Piping Rock ?

It's a treat.


It is possible that land might have had some movement at that time the golf course was designed and was subsequently graded to be "dead flat" for the polo fields?


NO

DT

[David_Tepper]

"Have you ever played Piping Rock ?"

Pat M. -

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the polo fields were already up & running before CBM was asked to design the golf course. Am I right about that?

I have played tennis on the grass courts at Piping Rock, but have not played golf there.
Ed Moylan,my college tennis coach, was one of the tennis pros at PR during the summer months.

DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Have you ever played Piping Rock ?"

Pat M. -

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the polo fields were already up & running before CBM was asked to design the golf course. Am I right about that?

Correct

I have played tennis on the grass courts at Piping Rock, but have not played golf there.
Ed Moylan,my college tennis coach, was one of the tennis pros at PR during the summer months.

It's quite a complex.
A throwback to a bygone era.

DT

[JR Potts]

While I haven seen Piping Rock, I think it would be pretty cool to play a dead flat hole.

[Chip Gaskins]

A few pics...

My favorite MacRaynor...

#6 Best green on the course!


#7


One of the few Biarritz with the front pad not cut at green height


#15


#16


The not so short #17

[Rick Shefchik]

What's that on the left side of #15, just short of the fir tree? I don't think I've ever seen a shape like that in a place like that on a golf course. I'm not sure I don't like it, but I'm not sure I get it, either.

[Mark Pearce]

I'm sure Pat will tell me I'm wrong and I'm sure PR is a great course.  But I look at these photos and I see yet another potentially great course with over defined, too narrow fairways.  That said, that's what I think when I see pictures of Merion.  LIke I said, I'm sure Pat will tell me I'm wrong.

[Chip Gaskins]

Mark

I have been beat to death on this board about my thoughts on overly narrow fairways (I call it the US Open creep), especially at Merion.  With that in mind, Piping plays much wider.  I agree that these pictures may not illustrate it (and hey, in my opinion every course should have very little rough, but I digress) but it does play much wider than it looks.  Again, Piping is a fantastic course.  My favorite MacRaynor (note: I have not play Yale or Mid Ocean)!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm sure Pat will tell me I'm wrong and I'm sure PR is a great course.  But I look at these photos and I see yet another potentially great course with over defined, too narrow fairways.  That said, that's what I think when I see pictures of Merion. 

LIke I said, I'm sure Pat will tell me I'm wrong.

Well, you are wrong.

You're wrong in that I'm not going to tell you you're wrong about the fairways.

Chip and I discussed that issue during our round.

It's clear, when you play the course, that it was meant to be wider.
You can see the fairway footpads on some holes and it's clear that areas intended as fairway are maintained as rough.

Some fairways retain elements of width, like # 14, but on others, it's apparent that they were intended to be wider.

For whatever the reason, the club has chosen to narrow the fairways by letting the rough grow in.
But, they're not that narrow.  I hit driver on every par 4 and par 5.

If I missed a fairway, it was because Jed was yelling on my backswing or because I was told to cut a corner (# and go over the trees..
In fact, other than # 8, I didn't miss a fairway.

Photos can be deceptive.

And, they don't tell the entire story.
The 6th green is far, far more pronounced than it appears in the picture.

PRC is the kind of course you could play every day, (36 or 54) and never tire of it.

It's special.

The par 5's are very interesting, especially in how they traverse the property

I intend to go to historicaerials.com to see how the course looked pre and post Pete Dye.

[Jed Peters]

If I missed a fairway, it was because Jed was yelling on my backswing.....

If you can't take the heat....

And anyway, I thought you were hard of hearing too? You know, first can't walk, then the whole cancer thing (whaaa), then some "eye" issue (still calling bullshit on that one based on your putting).....are you saying that you can actually HEAR as well? Shocking it hasn't degraded by now.

[Brad LeClair]

Chip, these are great photos. based on the foliage they look to be taken last week. Do you have any more?

[Jim Nugent]

I don't know what the design intent was, but St. Louis CC also has a polo field, that serves as the driving range.  IIRC, St. Louis CC was CBM's next course, after Piping Rock.  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The lead in to this thread does not make much sense.  Whatever CBM might have initially desired, he was very involved with the final product.  The result was superb.  After Tom Paul, I probably have played there more than anyone else on this sight--it never gets old and I always look forward to playing there.  Sunset over the clubhouse is among the better inland views on Long Island. 
The powers that be seem to like green, so it is kept fairly lush.  There is an emphasis upon presentation--fairway, collar rough, rough, bunker.  Quite a few of the bunker faces are grassed with zoisia which I have not seen at any other metro-NY course, and the faces tend to become brown by June which creates quite a contrast to the lush green.

[David_Elvins]

I have been beat to death on this board about my thoughts on overly narrow fairways (I call it the US Open creep), especially at Merion. 

if you did not already know, you may be pleased to know that several fairways at Merion have been widenned.  The 2nd goes all the way to the OOB fence.  The 5th goes all the way to the creek.  The 4th is significantly widenned to the left, once you get over the hill and goes all the way to the creek. 

anyway, sorry to threadjack.  Piping Rock is very cool. 

[Jason Baran]

What is the "100 yr anniversary stuff" that is going on at Piping?

It's amazing how these photos flatten out the course - 15 and 16 have way more elevation change than appears in these photos.

Real question isn't whether or not it's the best MacRaynor - it's whether it's the best MacRaynor in Locust Valley

[Jed Peters]

What is the "100 yr anniversary stuff" that is going on at Piping?

From our host "come hell or high water, this place will be restored and open completely by Memorial day. They're doing whatever it takes to get the restorations completed....."

[Patrick_Mucci]

If I missed a fairway, it was because Jed was yelling on my backswing.....

If you can't take the heat....

And anyway, I thought you were hard of hearing too? You know, first can't walk, then the whole cancer thing (whaaa), then some "eye" issue (still calling bullshit on that one based on your putting).....are you saying that you can actually HEAR as well? Shocking it hasn't degraded by now.

Jed, it wasn't "just" the yellilng.
It was the yelling combined with you jumping up and down and waving your arms wildly as you stood in front of me or directly behind me.

My putting, actually all our putting, improved in the afternoon on much faster, smoother greens.
Also, by the time we played the afternoon round I had become used to, in fact, immune to the yelling and screaming and jumping up and down, waving your arms wildly.  If I didn't know better I'd swear you were auditioning for the "flagman" position on an aircraft carrier.

I didn't find the fairways excessively narrow, but, I would have prefered them to have been mown out to their natural widths.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The lead in to this thread does not make much sense.  Whatever CBM might have initially desired, he was very involved with the final product.  The result was superb.  After Tom Paul, I probably have played there more than anyone else on this sight--it never gets old and I always look forward to playing there.  Sunset over the clubhouse is among the better inland views on Long Island. 
The powers that be seem to like green, so it is kept fairly lush.  There is an emphasis upon presentation--fairway, collar rough, rough, bunker.  Quite a few of the bunker faces are grassed with zoisia which I have not seen at any other metro-NY course, and the faces tend to become brown by June which creates quite a contrast to the lush green.

RMD,

We were all surprised by the introduction of Zyosia on the bunker and green slopes.
It looked very unnatural for a LI golf course, especially a "golden age" classiic.
I'm curious as to how the introduction of Zyosia came about and how it's lasted.

There's a new green/grounds chairman this year.
Hopefully, he'll emphasize F&F conditions, but, as you know, it's difficult to change a club's culture.

It's a wonderfully sporty course, one you never tire of.

[David_Elvins]

The 2nd goes all the way to the OOB fence. 

David:  that's interesting.  I don't think I've EVER seen a fairway extend all the way to an OOB fence...

Sorry, just double checked, the fairway ranges from 1-3 yards from the OOB fence in most of the driving zone.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What's that on the left side of #15, just short of the fir tree? I don't think I've ever seen a shape like that in a place like that on a golf course. I'm not sure I don't like it, but I'm not sure I get it, either.

Rick,

Chip and I noticed a number of mounds, most smaller and more pronounced than the one pictured below.
we also discussed the frugal, economic way in which turn of the century architects disposed of debris.
Debris mounds were quite common.
But, I didn't examine this particular mound carefully enough as I had to console Jed Peters on that hole when I outdrove him.
It took a good five minutes for him to get over it..... temporarily.

We spoke about accessing "historicaerials.com" in and effort to see which mounds/features/bunkers had been modified the most when Pete Dye worked on the course.

The mound looks out of place, as does the tree, especially given the terrain to the left of that mound.
# 12 has a similar tree growing out of a bunker as well.

But, getting back to the mound, with the large, steep bank to the left, it seems awkwardly out of place.

Yet, if someone told me that it was intended as a "kickplate" feature,  I might buy into that.

In the grand scheme of things, the mounding is not overly offensive.

I was very curious about the berm at the back of the 12th green and what looked like huge abandoned bunkers behind that green.
Again, historicaerials.com my solve the mystery of their origins and demise

[Sean_A]

I took the mound question to be more about why is it abandoned out on the left and could an area left of it be the true demarcation for the fairway.  It seems quite possible to me given the hill further up and the bunker.  Its a shame when these sorts of features are banished to rough areas when I think they would look grand as fairway features. 

Anyway, the fairway lines certainly have a constraining look which is unappealing and it is very apparent on the mounding hole mentioned above.  The greensites look very interesting though. 

As to the question of the title, if CBM did the final design despite not liking the the interference from his masters I don't see how he got it wrong if the course is as good as most say it is.

Ciao

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