[Melvyn Morrow]

At last “Ladies first as rule change looms at the home of golf” for more details seeNews.Scotsman.com  on the following link.

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Ladies-first-as-rule-change.6758956.jp

Perhaps your Lady wives will now have the pleasure of seeing the great trophies and history of the game they have kindly allowed us time to enjoy without too much pressure.

Melvyn

[Chris Kane]

I must have missed something Melvyn...isn't the article about St Andrews Golf Club? Will the St Rule and St Regulus clubs also accept common sense and admit men? 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Chris

Sorry, a Senior Moment must have elapsed, my error.

I had just been reading about the R&A, and some details regards our old home and the R&A, then went on to notice this article.

The other news that has caught my attention was the refurbishment of Old Tom’s shop by the Links Trust. The finds so far have been wonderful. Young Tommy’s locker and of late Old Tom’s work bench but more importantly some old Morris clubs and balls, a real find.

The shop reopens I believe this week-end with certain of the ‘found’ items being put on display. At long last I believe that the shop will be an asset to the town and visitors alike. Pleased to see the old management sell out as they knew not what they had, not just the current finds but management ability. I believe the new refurbished shop although small will be far more welcoming and airy, well I hope so.

In my excitement I thought that common sense had also prevailed at the R&A, boy I should have known better.  Thanks for attracting my attention to my daft error.

Melvyn   

[Garland Bayley]

A merry welcome to the 20th century for the St. Andrews Golf Club!

[Niall C]

Where's the "common sense" in allowing woman to become members, seriously ? Private clubs by definition have a limited membership. How they choose to limit that membership is there business. Having been a member at different times of several different male/female clubs and one all male club there is a different vibe in each as you might expect, and not necessarily mysoginistic in the case of the all male club. Indeed I've seen more mysoginists in the male/female club than I ever have in the all male club. All male simply doesn't equal mysoginy.

Niall

[Jed Peters]

What a shame.

[Brent Hutto]

One problem that I can see with being a member at a club that does not allow women is that you spend all your time surrounded by people who feel a need to exclude women. At least 99% of the things men are unwilling to do when there's a lady in building are things I'd just as soon they not do when I'm around. Seriously, do they want to be able to show their dick in the dining room or fart out loud during board meetings? What exactly is it that's the hangup?

I'd think the worst part about joining a club that doesn't allow Black members would be having to play golf every day with a bunch of damned racists. Other than that it's probably no big deal.

[Mark Chaplin]

Garland it's not the R&A but a completely different club.

[Jud_T]

First Catholics, then Jews, then African Americans now women.  What's the world coming to? Pretty soon they'll expect us to break bread with Liberals!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland it's not the R&A but a completely different club.

Duly noted.

It always seems to me that the exclusion of people by race, or gender, or other criteria is a sign of weak people trying to maintain a status they could not otherwise achieve.

Therefore, an all male club excluding women is an admission that some or many may fall short if the are inclusive.
Therefore, insisting that women reciprocate by not excluding men is an admission that you feel women are trying to preserve a superiority and you feel intimidated by it.

JMHO

[Kris Shreiner]

I for one hope they do allow women into the main bar area. In 2000, I joined St. Andrew's Golf Club after being invited to join by two members. The place is awesome, though I really didn't care for the no women policy. My now wife, a native Scot, has no time for these things and admonished me then for being a member of "that mysoginistic bunch." She said "if you have any respect for me or women in general you'll not keep that membership." I didn't re-new aftew that year. If the gals are in, I'll be back if they'll have me.

A second Scotland story, this one changing a perception of a mild chauvinist. My wife and I were in the company of the club secretary of a top class links course well known to all here as he shared the club history with us. At one point during the conversation, the mention of "separate" clubs for men and women was made with a whiff of smug satisfaction. This drew a bit of a stare from my gal, but nothng was said as we adjourned to change for our round of golf he was hosting for us.

It was a raw, very windy day, gusting to 40+, with rain squalls. We headed out directly into this headwind coming off the sea, dealing with it for most of the front nine. We men played just ok.

What i'll always remember was my wife's zeal just ripping numerous boring, low three woods and long irons around that entire front nine. While she's no slouch, playing off 11, her quality of ballstriking and play were at another level that day, especially given the conditions. She finished 3 over for the front and shot 82 that day. That club secretary was in total awe! I remember him turning to me after about the 5th hole, with the rain stinging our faces, and saying "Your wife's a damn good golfer!"

I'll never forget how proud I was of her that day. She made it a point to show to show him that she was every bit his or ANY other man's equal. I told her after the round that she changed a man that day, if only a little. Those opportunities are what really growing as a person is all about. I hope to experience and share in more of those experiences as long as I'm breathing.

Cheers,
Kris

[Niall C]

Brent

I have never ever seen anyone behave the way you suggested at an all male club or elsewhere. They behave exactly the way they do in other clubs, that is they enjoy their golf, enjoy the company, have a few drinks and go home. While at the club they talk about all the usual things guys do when in a group, namely sport, politics, business and yes women. And what they say about their girlfriends/wifes or whatever is exactly the same as men in male/female clubs do. The only difference is that they don't have to look over their shoulder while saying it 

Kris

Nice story, but I think you're wives view of the St Andrews club is based more in her prejudice than the facts.

Niall

[Brent Hutto]

Niall,

That's what I would have thought. So really inexplicable why "No Girls Allowed" is such a big deal for some people. Just trying to imagine some reason for not being comfortable with women around.

[Jud_T]

Some men obviously prefer a sausage-fest.

[Kris Shreiner]

Niall,

She has no prejudice at all. We're friends with several members there. No individual, man or women, who ever played golf with my wife has ever said anything to me but how much of a joy she is to go 'round with...and that includes some ardent chauvinists!

What irritates her to no end is how you can enjoy each others company on the course and then not be able to continue that same wonderful interaction TOGETHER afterward at the club. Sorry pards, if you want to try and defend that one...nothing more needs to be said.

Many guys don't play much golf in mixed company. I always have, even when I was single. Some gals are a pain in the ass to play with, but that really isn't about gender, it's about the individual. Just like there there are some real pathetic acting men I'd never play with again. I don't have contempt for all-men's clubs, hell I've played at a few, but I wouldn't join one today.

Cheers,
Kris

[Niall C]

Kris,

I don't know the club you are referring to but the All Male club I was a member of didn't restrict guests of any sex from entering the clubhouse after a game. Members were free to take their wives/girlfriends or simply friends on as guests in the normal manner. Some just have them over to the clubhouse for a meal or a drink, whatever they want to do, but the main thing is its a golf club and the golf is run for the men.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the way your average male/female club is run in Scotland (and I suspect elsewhere in the UK) but the membership is split into Gents and Ladies sections. Mostly they have seperate comps and at certain times restricted tee-off in favour of one section over the other. Basically they tend to operate as seperate entities anyway. When organising bounce games, the guys tend to play with other guys and the ladies tend play with other ladies.

At an all male club its much simpler as you only really have one type of member, and the club is run for them only. Thats a benefit of an all male or all female club. Just because you play golf at an all male club doesn't mean you're a) mysoginist and b) don't play golf with women. I certainly don't hate women and I 've played and enjoyed playing golf with them.

Brent

Single sex clubs isn't a big deal. Notwithstanding Kris's comments about his wife, I've yet to meet a lady golfer who gives a toss whether the R&A, Hon. Co. etc are all male. Equally I've never met a male golfer who is desperate to join an all female club. I think people here just respect others rights to associate with who they want and don't see that as being an infringement on their own freedoms. Its only the occasional political opportunist who tries to make a deal of it.

Niall

[Brent Hutto]

Niall,

I respect anyone's right to associate or not with the "type" of persons they choose. I do not necessarily respect the decisions of those who choose to form same-sex or same-race or same-religion or same-whatever golf clubs.

Such a choice indicates a view of the world that I believe is rather childish and small-minded. But if someone's outlook is indeed so limited by petty concerns over gender (or whatever) it makes no difference to me who they choose to hang around with and play golf.

[Niall C]

Brent

Your outlook seems to chime with those that believe in quotas and positive discrimination in order to achieve "balance". Its an outlook I don't share. Personally I think the world is a richer place due to different cultures and customs. Further, if I choose to associate with "type A" that doesn't mean I don't like "type B", it just means for a moment in time I want to be in the company of "type A". Its that simple.

If you choose to think of me as being childish and small minded because simply I joined a club that happens to be all male, then I suspect there's not a lot I can do to change your mind. I think you're wrong and that you haven't got nearly enough information to make a judgement about me but I respect your right to make that judgement.

Niall

[Tim Martin]

Isn`t it really about resistance to change and the perception of "Oh no what`s going to happen now" and not "I don`t like women and they will ruin the club"? It certainly is time to make the changes required to allow women but it is also not easy to change the culture of a club which in some cases has been in existence since the last century.

[Melvyn Morrow]

When my father in the late 1950/60 was refused access to take my mother and my sister into The R&A to see Young Tommy’s Belt, showed me how hurtful some of these stupid rules can be. He never set foot within the club after that.

Worst still are the rules that can be broken subject to status, when some women are allowed access while the majority are not. So I welcome an open door policy into clubs.

Melvyn

[Marty Bonnar]

As one who has had the great pleasure of being unceremoniously turfed out of the R&A clubhouse by a right proper wee jobsworth, I can tell you that it matters not a jot what sex you are. If you ain't a member or a member's guest - Beat It!
I'd still defend their position mind you. All of life is unequal, imbalanced, unfair and unjust. We get to discuss grass while people in Africa are starving. Doesn't make us bad people.
FBD.

[Jud_T]

Niall, Marty et. al,

Here's the problem.  Sure it's fine to say it's a private club and I respect their right to legally do whatever the hell they like.  Freedom from government control and all that.  In the states there are male clubs where women aren't allowed to set foot on the grounds (Chicago I believe has the most in the country).  Here's the rub.  Imagine that the best golf course and/or most desirable social club in your area is male only.  Now imagine that prominent business people entertain clients there (surely not much of a stretch).  Now imagine that the most promising potential client in town is an aspiring golfer who'd give his left nut to play the aforementioned course or socialize at said club and might well be swayed to throw some business toward the salesman who got him out there.  Now imagine that the two best salespeople in town are a man and a women, both avid golfers.  See the problem of access and discrimination?  And don't tell me that a round at Palmetto vs. a round at Augusta National will have the same effect on the client...I'll wait for someone to intelligently refute that logic...

[Sean_A]

It will never cease to amaze me why folks are so hell bent on equal access to all in matters of leisure.  Do these same folks want to review my list of friends to inspect for poltical correctness as well?  Live and let live.

Jud

Those are the breaks of life.  Sometimes it works in your favour to be a man or woman, sometimes it doesn't.   It isn't the job of a private club to ensure all have equal access to clients and why on earth would you expect it to be?

Ciao

[Jud_T]

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

OK Sean

Send me your list and I pass it onto MI5 or is that 6.

Melvyn

PS I see nothing wrong with open doors policy with the facility for Men or Women private rooms. Women have the vote these days so we should give them at least equal access even though some rooms may still be closed to them  - that seems fair and just in this unjust world after all we are meant to be civilised - right?

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