[Mike_Young]

I think many just need to face reality.....there has never been much need for "golf architecture"....most of what we have seen in the last 30 years has been done for the sake of selling homes not because the developer was interested in golf....sure there have been a few major projects on a national level that were different but not enough to generate work for the number of golf architects out there. 
Think about the buggy whip manufacturers....when the car came about they either freaked or got a gas station....
Of all the jobs in golf the golf architect is the most vulnerable....we have 16900 golf courses and maybe 2000 would even consider using a golf architect for rework or such....the ODG's knew this and I'm not so sure any of them ever made a living form golf design....IMHO that is why such an effort was made by a few to lend credibility to the business via the ASGCA in the 40's.  ...The public is not stupid...if your forte is to bring in a bunch of drawings and try to sell yourself as "designing" a golf course you will have a difficult road in the future.....nowdays all they want is to get it done....not in a cheap way but in an economically efficient way....Just look at how many architects are listed in some of these places as golf architects....yet they don't have a single scorecard anywhere with their name on it as the designer....they have never sold a new 18 hole job in their name....and they have been sheltered by reality due to the fact they were working for some signature....and that's not to say that some of these guys can't get it done....I'm just trying to state how much of this business has become smoke and mirrors over the last 40 years....it was never a real business and never really will be....not if you want to make a living....IMHO you have to go Rogue...have a product you can design and build (as Don states earlier) and be able to sell it....just think ..how many of the courses that are touted here actually had a stack of drawings?   The hype and BS are over...just like the buggy whip....cheers

[Scott Warren]

Adrian:

I dont see the 'poor form' bit. What is poor form? We are discussing the lack of work in golf course architecture, I am relating a story of what is happening in my little world, few jobs and the price cutting. I am lucky I don't need the work to survive, I really don't see the problem...I put a price in, someone undercut it...they need the work.... its life.

What you've represented as fact - twice - is your version of one side of the story.

I respect the class the other architect has shown by not weighing in publicly to address your allegations. He's a bloody good bloke who is doing very well for himself and I'm sure he'll do a great job.

I'm not going to comment further because it really isn't my business, but I just hate seeing stuff like this.

[Eric Strulowitz]

Appreciate the comments here about the state of the business, especially the blunt comments from Mike
Young. 

Every golf project I can think of in the last 20 years or so in Atlanta has been associated with housing.  The stand alone golf course is dead or close to it. 
How sad, but true.

And that will certainly mean less demand for good architects.  And you know what, the young generation could care less.  The type of people that come to a web site like this are dinosaurs,  and I say that in a good way.  There is an appreciation for the aesthetics of the game, the way the land is utilized, and the traditions that go along with it all.   Part of the fun for me when playing a new course or going on a trip, is researching the courses, knowing the designers, and just absorbing the whole experience.    You go to any course, speak to younger players, they could care less whether the course was designed by so and so.  They could not name five designers.  They could not tell you what a Redan is.   They could not tell you how a given hole was templated from another.  Or why a hole was made great or turned out bad, given the land.   They could care less.  They just want ot whack the hell out of the ball with five text messages in between. 

So maybe the future is minimalism, raw minimalism.  Just providing a cheap venue where the next generation can whack the hell out of the ball, and with a few aesthetics to make the whole place presentable.  That will be the challenge, because the sad truth is that no one soon will care about good design vs bad design, and if they did they would not know the difference anyway.  And no one will be willing or able to pay a premium that good design might involve.    The dumbing down in this country and lowering of standards and expectations is universal, golf will be hit hard.  And it will be under the radar, no one will care.  The fact is that a lot of us are hard working and successful, but  we are viewed wrongly as the bad guys.  So who cares about these golf courses where you rich play and who cares about those guys that design your playgrounds.   And a beautiful art form will go the way of most art, this new generation has lost any concept of what art is.    It is all about electronics and social networking.  And blaming others and being jealous of those that have what you don't. 

Enjoy this all guys and gals while you still can!  And this pertains not just to golf, a lot is changing.  Getting old is not as bad as it used to be, seeing what is going on.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian:

I just lost a 9 hole par 3 design to another architect. I quoted £22,000 for routing, grading, tree planting, green design drawing, sectional drawings for planning, plus 40 half days on site.... I got beat by another architect who sliced my price by £10,000. If the client is going for an architect on price and he has been happy with two other course I did for him... its NO HOPE for me. To be honest £22,000 was cheap, if it was 100 miles further away I would have been £42,000.

Scott - This is my story, no one else can have a side, I dont see any allegations. The only possible thing that could be untrue is that he did not quote a price that much inside of me and the client has told me lies but thats the figure they said to me. I think you have misread something here. I quoted for a job and got beat, plain and simple.

[Jud_T]

Eric,

Art and GCA go in cycles just like everything else.  It may decline and go underground for a period, but that's what makes it cool to another generation.  If the world came to an end every time someone forecast it due to some major event in science, business or art we'd be out of planets to live on by now.  The human soul craves outdoor sport and the arts, this doesn't go away because you're face is buried in an Iphone 16 hours a day, arguably it increases the need...Don't give up the faith...

[PCCraig]

(* That is, apart from the idiot bankers who think they are all geniuses again because they've managed not to blow up our bailout money for two whole years, and the cheerleading politicians and media who want us to think they have fixed things for us.)

I resent that.

[Mark Pearce]

Guys,

This is life for pretty much everybody these days.  We recently quoted a client a fee for some work that was below our break even price but they would have been a new client with potential for plenty of good work, so we tried to buy the work.  Our bid was £15k.  The succesful firm quoted £5k.  There's nothing improper here, just desperate people looking for work.

[Don_Mahaffey]

What makes the whole quoting thing tough is, IMO, there is no doubt some are quoting low to get the job knowing full well they will be working hard to create as many extras as possible. I've seen it in some of the building construction we've done recently. Clients really need to do their research as total cost, and quality, is what should matter. An upfront price matters little when the contractor has his hand out from the very beginning.

[Kris Shreiner]

I appreciate the different takes on the current state of golf design and the youth of today changing. I'm not sure I agree with some of the dire assessments.
There is no question that a lot of marginal golf courses came out of the last 20 or so years of design. When volume is the mantra and development gone wild is the order of the day, craft and quality are generally compromised. Let's be frank, there are plenty of architects who really shouldn't be in the business and the market will cull them.

Down here in Florida, before the bust of '07-'08, any hack that called himself a landscape designer had all the work they could handle. Most of them were pathetic and put in garbage, overcharged and their work needs a complete-re-do...this, not five years on from installation for many projects. Those folks are sucking wind or out of business now. Though the volume is less, there is still work here and the solid operators who grind are getting it.

Sounds a lot like the golf course scenario we see out there right now. Hey, when times get tough, the tough get going. Do you have to bust your ass, network more, promote and present more...hell yes. Anyone who whines because the milk and honey days are over is a candidate to get run over by the rest that understand what's required to secure work these days.

Adaptation and flexibility are the keys. Several architects I interact with, not big names, are staying plenty busy...IN THE U.S! Are they doing all new design work; of course not. But it is interesting, creative and they are being well-paid. There are a lot of talented folks that
just have to re-evalute their approach and remain persistent.

As to the texting, derelict youth of today...well, hate to break it to you, but there have always been some of these since the cavedwelling days, minus the texting. Golf is a hard game that requires access to learn. The difficulty of it eliminates 50% of the potential players straight away. Then there are those that get a taste, but drift away due to a host of reasons, cost and time commitment being two of the major factors. As to the time excuse I hear mentioned ad nauseum today...fishing has never been more popular..and that sure isn't a quick activity. To me, cost and access are most limiting for the majority.

The group that usually finds the game and embraces it for a lifetime are those that get "bitten" by this delightful, maddening, wacky sport of golf. In general, they were introduced to it by someone who had the love, passion and desire to share it with them. Historically, many of modest means found golf through caddying. Due to greed, apathy and ignorance, this vital breeding ground for rabid golfers, youthful and otherwise, has been largley, abondoned by the game.Excuses abound...they are just that, excuses! Because the pocketliners don't see a profit center, they're not interested. Ironic, the game has never been as unhealthy as is is right now. Coincidence, I think not.

Golf will always have limited participation. That is not a bad thing. It is the strident support for nuturing the elements that ensure the game is healthy, from both the perspective of the ground over which we play... and those that take up and sustain the game, is really what's most important.

Keep the faith!

Cheers,
Kris

[Tim Nugent]

Jud, well said - "what goes around comes around".  The problem with 80% of those here is they weren't practicing in the early 70's.  My father was and when Killian & Nugent landed a job for Bethlehem Steel (Sand Creek) they did have 20% of the market and it probably kept Wadsworth Golf Construction from going out of business.  Fast forward 20 years and there are 400 courses a year being built, 100's of architects and Wadsworth is the Biggest Golf Contractor in the world.  Yes, again we are in trough.  The business model that has been in effect for the last quarter century is no longer profitable.  But just like century that preceeded this, there will be booms and there will be busts.  There will be survivors and there will be casualties.  The survivors will be the ones who can/did see this coming and switched their business plan.  The casualties will be the ones who didn't.

If the past is any indicator of things to come, here's what I think will happen:
  1st Attrition.  There will be a reduction in the number of firms as Jud outlined in the Building field as the cost/stress/headache of being in business becomes not worth the investment in the overhead.
  2nd Fallout.  Those architects that worked for those firms and others who's principal's stay in business but decide to go solo, some will see the light and switch careers.  Others will try to hang out their own shingle, go after the firms existing/past clients, undercut and try to work for wages.  Eventually, 90% will fail (unless they have a trust fund or a wife with a good enough job to support both of them and their family - as most Jr Architects are of the family rearing years).  Also, those in this situation will not have the luxury of traveling as the wife can't have her career AND do all the homefront responsibilities.
  3rd Deferred Maintenance. Courses will forego capital outlays and reduce ongoing expenses for a protracted cycle.  Unlike past downturns, this one is not cuased by high interest rates.  It's lack of capital due to unemployment.  In past cycles, existing courses/clubs could fund projects internally which kept that segment alive. What I find sad is the number college grads send out resumes looking for "entry level" (ie no exoerience) jobs who are probably saddled with hige student loans
These three will thin the herd of practioners by a huge percentage.  We will lose a entire generation. For those that can figure out a way to hang in there, times will be tight, earnings meager and it will feel like you're living in the dark ages. But, eventually, the tide will turn and there will be a renaissance.  Those would managed to survive will be in a good position to take advange as the amount of competition will have been greatly reduced.

[Tim Nugent]

Paul - Keep this in mind, "Some of the best jobs are the ones you didn't get".  I've seen Dad pass on many jobs over the years (sometimes even when we needed the work).  He would assess the project, the people involved and it's potential for success.  When your only as good as your last project, spinning your wheels on something that may not ever happen or worse, go under half way through and leave you with a stack of unpaid bills, the need to assess jobs and potential clients has never been more necessary. The more someone wants you to foot the upfront costs, the more likely you will get shafted somewhere down the line.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

One of the great stories around KN involved George, who was their field guy at Sand Creek and a real card.

I wasn't there, but supposedly when they were in the deep straits, George answered the phone one day. It was a wrong number and hung up, but George stayed on the phone, saying "Uh huh, Uh huh" for a while.  Then he "announced" that "the firm wasn't interested in anything less than 54 hole golf centers" and hung up.

Had your Dad going for at least a second!

[Tim Nugent]

Jeff, then there was the time when my Dad went to the site and was looking for George.  Everyone he asked said "George? Ya just saw him over by...".  After rambling around for an hour and NO George, it finally dawned on him - "George (and that VW Micro Bus) isn't here".  Although he was pretty mad, he realized (after he cooled down) Hey, if everyone working here is willing to cover for him, at least he's well liked.
BTW,  still have an Ink on slice of tree branch (about 8" dia) that George Grundrum did as a preliminary logo.  I think George was Dad's biggest disapointment.  He always said "the guy had talent just dripping from his fingertips -just no aspirations".  I wouldn't be surprised if, after he quit, he followed the Greatful Dead for a year.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Glad I wasn't his biggest disappointment....bet I won in "biggest smartass" category, though!

[Mike_Young]

Jud, well said - "what goes around comes around".  The problem with 80% of those here is they weren't practicing in the early 70's.  My father was and when Killian & Nugent landed a job for Bethlehem Steel (Sand Creek) they did have 20% of the market and it probably kept Wadsworth Golf Construction from going out of business.  Fast forward 20 years and there are 400 courses a year being built, 100's of architects and Wadsworth is the Biggest Golf Contractor in the world.  Yes, again we are in trough.  The business model that has been in effect for the last quarter century is no longer profitable.  But just like century that preceeded this, there will be booms and there will be busts.  There will be survivors and there will be casualties.  The survivors will be the ones who can/did see this coming and switched their business plan.  The casualties will be the ones who didn't.

If the past is any indicator of things to come, here's what I think will happen:
  1st Attrition.  There will be a reduction in the number of firms as Jud outlined in the Building field as the cost/stress/headache of being in business becomes not worth the investment in the overhead.
  2nd Fallout.  Those architects that worked for those firms and others who's principal's stay in business but decide to go solo, some will see the light and switch careers.  Others will try to hang out their own shingle, go after the firms existing/past clients, undercut and try to work for wages.  Eventually, 90% will fail (unless they have a trust fund or a wife with a good enough job to support both of them and their family - as most Jr Architects are of the family rearing years).  Also, those in this situation will not have the luxury of traveling as the wife can't have her career AND do all the homefront responsibilities.
  3rd Deferred Maintenance. Courses will forego capital outlays and reduce ongoing expenses for a protracted cycle.  Unlike past downturns, this one is not cuased by high interest rates.  It's lack of capital due to unemployment.  In past cycles, existing courses/clubs could fund projects internally which kept that segment alive. What I find sad is the number college grads send out resumes looking for "entry level" (ie no exoerience) jobs who are probably saddled with hige student loans
These three will thin the herd of practioners by a huge percentage.  We will lose a entire generation. For those that can figure out a way to hang in there, times will be tight, earnings meager and it will feel like you're living in the dark ages. But, eventually, the tide will turn and there will be a renaissance.  Those would managed to survive will be in a good position to take advange as the amount of competition will have been greatly reduced.

I think you are dead right....may take a while but would bet it happens as you describe...

[Tim Nugent]

Mike, what really irks me is money grubbing Universities that are still churning out LA's that want to be GCA's with ZERO hope of getting "Entry Level" positions.  Hell, I'd bet I could hire a dozen guys with double-digit years of experience tomorrow (if there was the work).  Couple this with all the guys in Turf school wanting to be supers. At least some of those will get $12/hr asst. jobs as a few of the old timers retire/die and those guys who have been assts for a decade finally get the big job.

Unfortunately no one is telling them the truth in school and by the time they are up to their eyeballs in sudent loans, it's too late.  But hey, those Profs still have their tenure job!

Jeff, after George, I think you'ld be his second - in the most talented category, not disappointment one (you probably lost some smart-ass points but got the ILLINI credit).  After you, probably Cameron Masterson.  Lord only knows where I come 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

I remember you being my staking assistant at Kemper Lakes when you were in high school. I was setting up the transit, and taking forever to get it level (took a while to learn that for some reason) and you were sitting on the tailgate of my Blazer putting colored ribbons on the stakes. 

At least I thought you were.  You had been to a concert the night before and were actually dozing off, while appearing to work.  Kinda like what I do now at age 56......

That wasn't as funny as the first time Bob Lohmann took me out staking.  Again, lets me set up transit.  He goes to car to get old stakes to reuse, but I though the grade marks on them were him being so experienced that he could mark them before we set them in the ground!

Ah, the good old days.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

M.Y. is right.  The golf business is struggling and will continue for the next few years.  We still need some more courses to close.

If and when the real estate market returns, it will be interesting to see if developers go back to the fairway homes concept.  My guess is yes but in smaller numbers than the past.

Therefore without many real estate projects, and cities and/or counties aren't building anything, the only opportunity out there will be to compete with construction companies, supers and shapers for remodel jobs.

[Tim Nugent]

Ahh Kemper, yeah pretty hard for teenagers to get up that early in the summer, especially when none of your friends had jobs and could sleep all morning.  I mostly remember being rodman for the 2 Jim's - Bommel and Blaucovich.  When I was 14, I was going with Blaucovich up to Evergreen in Wisconsin in his gold '68 Charger (with the pistol grip Hurst 4-speed) and he gets a blowout at about 70 and cooly downshifts us to a stop. Man, after that I thought he was like Steve McQueen.

Don't laugh about the pre-marked stakes. I still do that for final grades.  I put a line on them about 1'ft up and then mark for topsoil/ greensmix, ect and just pound them in until the line hits the proper subgrade.  Saves my old back from all that bending over to mark them.  My Dad also thought I was nuts for using an old golf bag to carry my stakes in.  I used to frive Jim nuts trying to figure out ways to do things easier. He said I should go to school to be an Industrial Engineer, 1st time I'd ever even heard of one.  Funny thing is I married one and know she tells me how I should have done this and that!

Lynn, don't be surprised if you do see the return of fairway homes.  With fewer developments, land costs will be lower. developers will turn to more cluster housing with smaller houses on smaller lots but municipalities will stick to their density rules, so they will need the open space to make the density work.  Cities won't want parkland in developments that they have to pay to maintain with there already stretched budgets and developers know they can still get a premium for fairway lots.  Plus, say what you want but they need something to differenciate their development from the others. And Golf Course Communities still do that.
And some of us are already in the design build areana.  Yes, we will have to wear many different hats.  Woe is the guy that only knows how to do one thing.  His problems is he will not get the oportunity to learn other skills.  Those of us who can move seamlessly from the seat of a dozer to a seat in the boardroom will be better equipt for what the future holds.
PS. My Dozer is waiting for me in Helsinki. I'll be there in a couple weeks putting in 12-14 hr days, 6 days a week. The glorious life of the 21st Century GCA!

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

The next downswing in the economy of the world is coming in the name of carbon cap and trade.

This is the next fraud to be committed by the big banks and brokers, in the EU, it is already happening.

They are trading these things just like they traded white paper in the mortgage fiasco.

That will set the golf industry, especially architects, back another 10 years.

I would say do not expect recovery until 2025 at the minimum.

I went through one of these downswings in golf back in the early 70's and it lasted for nearly 15 years.

[Randy Thompson]

Paul - Keep this in mind, "Some of the best jobs are the ones you didn't get".  I've seen Dad pass on many jobs over the years (sometimes even when we needed the work).  He would assess the project, the people involved and it's potential for success.  When your only as good as your last project, spinning your wheels on something that may not ever happen or worse, go under half way through and leave you with a stack of unpaid bills, the need to assess jobs and potential clients has never been more necessary. The more someone wants you to foot the upfront costs, the more likely you will get shafted somewhere down the line.

I agree with you Tim! It is important to weed them out. I paid my expenses for an interview twice in 20 years and both times things didn“t work out and I had a terrible feeling of being used.. I wonder if anyone has signed contracts and paid their initial expenses. I won“t do it anymore. In fact most of the time I charge for an itnital interview calling it a site analysis visit and the fee is credited in the first payment of any going forward contract.
Lowering fee“s to ridiculous low numbers like bieng mentioned by a select few is not the answer. Bidding wars start and everybody suffers and the winner of the contract gets a couple extra months of staying alive. Things are not going to drastically change in a couple of months so you will end up in the same boat you were in before throwing out rock bottm pricing. I am just a firm believer of, Never let them see you sweat!
One thing that has not changed is you need to be pursuing ten projects to get one. Paul your close to that ten...chase one or two more and one should turn to reality. At least your chasing and pursuing, it gets real scary when there is nothing in relation to possibilities.

[Brian Ross]

Mike, what really irks me is money grubbing Universities that are still churning out LA's that want to be GCA's with ZERO hope of getting "Entry Level" positions.  Hell, I'd bet I could hire a dozen guys with double-digit years of experience tomorrow (if there was the work).  Couple this with all the guys in Turf school wanting to be supers. At least some of those will get $12/hr asst. jobs as a few of the old timers retire/die and those guys who have been assts for a decade finally get the big job.

Unfortunately no one is telling them the truth in school and by the time they are up to their eyeballs in sudent loans, it's too late.  But hey, those Profs still have their tenure job!

Tim, I can't speak to the professors at other universities, but mine here at VT have been MORE than open with me about the prospects of finding work (or not) in the GCA market once I graduate next year, and a lot of the architects I have spoken to have given me a similar story.  A lot more have told me if I want it bad enough and am persistent enough, I can get there...one day.  I may not be the lead architect on a project anytime soon, but I believe that there are opportunities out there for LAR grads interested in GCA to improve their skills and make themselves more attractive to the firms that do have work.  That's the path I will take if I must because this is the field I want to work in.  Anybody coming out of school right now expecting opportunities to exist like they did 5, 10, or 20 years ago has been living with blinders on, IMO.  And that is not just for GCA, but for landscape architecture, architecture, building construction, etc. etc.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, what really irks me is money grubbing Universities that are still churning out LA's that want to be GCA's with ZERO hope of getting "Entry Level" positions.  Hell, I'd bet I could hire a dozen guys with double-digit years of experience tomorrow (if there was the work).  Couple this with all the guys in Turf school wanting to be supers. At least some of those will get $12/hr asst. jobs as a few of the old timers retire/die and those guys who have been assts for a decade finally get the big job.

Unfortunately no one is telling them the truth in school and by the time they are up to their eyeballs in sudent loans, it's too late.  But hey, those Profs still have their tenure job!

Jeff, after George, I think you'ld be his second - in the most talented category, not disappointment one (you probably lost some smart-ass points but got the ILLINI credit).  After you, probably Cameron Masterson.  Lord only knows where I come 

Tim,
It's not just Landscape Architecture and Turf school....the biggest scam now is a young person gets out of the four year program and either can't find a job or works for a few years then is laid off.....no job so he goes back to get an MBA...and the schools know this...the average MBA age at Georgia is 27 years old....Universities are industries now and they market these MBA's as another filler....but I still don't think there wil be jobs for these guys after the MBA and another round of student loans....it's almost a scam....

As for golf courses coming back in thehousing market...maybe...but what is not being mentioned is that they will not come back if they have to be subsidized like the last few years.....what has always frustraetd me is when you can give a devloper a course that is cashflowing on it's own and yet all the hype and awards are going to some overblown rockwall laden , 2 mill maintenance budget course that could never sustain itself...which is responsible design?  oh well....

[Adrian_Stiff]

Anyone considering a career as a golf course architect at the moment is near deluded, it is as silly in wanting to be a singer in a rock band, this situation was staring us in the face 3 years ago. Sadly there is no nice answer, you will get people do work cheaper, all the main players will have to work inside their previous price or perhaps even by taking a stake in the project. Anyone wanting a golf course can pick one up for say 40c on the dollar, so why pay a dollar.

New golf courses have gotten back to the fundamentals of needing to be sustainable as independent business's. The new ones will only work in special places....when it kicks off again Eastern Europe will see lots I think, it might be the wrong time now but with Sky TV worldwide, Latvians and Moldovans will want to golf.

[David_Elvins]

Mike, what really irks me is money grubbing Universities that are still churning out LA's that want to be GCA's with ZERO hope of getting "Entry Level" positions. 

You make a good point, but it has to be up to the student to recognise the industry to a degree.  And things don't always work that way anyway. 

When I was at Universtiy in the late 90s we shered a lot of subjects with the small  geology program.  In the four years I was there, not one graduate from the course got a job as a geologist.  Like many other geology schools i nthe country, the program was shut down. 

Five years later, geologists are the highest paid graduates in the country, earning on average more than $100,000 in their first year out of school. 

Making predictions about the job market 4 years in advance is not an exact science and it really shouldn't be up to universities to predict these things.  They really only need to supply a demand for their product. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()