[Bill_McBride]

Don't ask why, but I was looking at page 43 of the thread on the origins of NGLA (which has, as one might expect, turned into a Merion cat fight) and noticed the following that was part of a post by Mike Cirba:

"This snippet from an article talking about his plans for an ideal course makes it clear that CBM was often consulted by clubs building or considering new golf courses."



Down in the middle of that clipping, the author says that CBM designed the original course at Chicago to have the same order and length of the holes at St. Andrews Old!   Is this accurate?  Can anyone post that original plan?  I've never seen or heard of that before, and it is a fascinating preface to Macdonald's use of hole templates starting at NGLA.

Comments?

[PCCraig]

I'm assuming the article means the first Chicago Golf Club layout, which what's left of it is now Downers Grove Golf Course?

[SL_Solow]

The man to ask is Dan Moore who is currently across the pond.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm assuming the article means the first Chicago Golf Club layout, which what's left of it is now Downers Grove Golf Course?

Really?  I thought Raynor built the "new" course over the top of the original on that big square parcel, but built holes in the center where the racetrack had been.

Or that's what I recall from the 2005 Walker Cup there.

[SL_Solow]

Pat is correct as to the original.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat is correct as to the original.

So the only course ever at Chicago Golf Club is the one that's there now?   And CBM built his version in Downers Grove?

[PCCraig]

Pat is correct as to the original.

So the only course ever at Chicago Golf Club is the one that's there now?   And CBM built his version in Downers Grove?

No, CBM founded and built CGC on the site of what is now Downers Grove Golf Course (public, since been chopped into nine holes I believe). After leaving that site, the membership and CBM built a course on their present location in Wheaton. Raynor later came and renovated the existing golf course. Fast forward 100 or so years and you've got the modern day CGC.

My first statement was that the article probably has to do with the routing of the first course, now the site of Downers Grove golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat is correct as to the original.

So the only course ever at Chicago Golf Club is the one that's there now?   And CBM built his version in Downers Grove?

No, CBM founded and built CGC on the site of what is now Downers Grove Golf Course (public, since been chopped into nine holes I believe). After leaving that site, the membership and CBM built a course on their present location in Wheaton. Raynor later came and renovated the existing golf course. Fast forward 100 or so years and you've got the modern day CGC.

My first statement was that the article probably has to do with the routing of the first course, now the site of Downers Grove golf course.

Pat, if you go back to the top and read the clipping, you'll see it says "....laid out the first course...AT WHEATON."

So the course that was meant to replicate the order and length of the holes at St Andrews was on the Wheaton parcel.  I have seen that routing on this site, and hope someone can post that again.  I'm fascinated by that idea!   I do remember that the course had a "Muirfield" routing to accommodate CBM's prevailing slice tee shots.

[PCCraig]

Pat is correct as to the original.

So the only course ever at Chicago Golf Club is the one that's there now?   And CBM built his version in Downers Grove?

No, CBM founded and built CGC on the site of what is now Downers Grove Golf Course (public, since been chopped into nine holes I believe). After leaving that site, the membership and CBM built a course on their present location in Wheaton. Raynor later came and renovated the existing golf course. Fast forward 100 or so years and you've got the modern day CGC.

My first statement was that the article probably has to do with the routing of the first course, now the site of Downers Grove golf course.

Pat, if you go back to the top and read the clipping, you'll see it says "....laid out the first course...AT WHEATON."

So the course that was meant to replicate the order and length of the holes at St Andrews was on the Wheaton parcel.  I have seen that routing on this site, and hope someone can post that again.  I'm fascinated by that idea!   I do remember that the course had a "Muirfield" routing to accommodate CBM's prevailing slice tee shots.

My bad Bill....

That's interesting....

[Ed Oden]

For what it's worth, here are the Chicago Golf Club maps on the "Compilation" thread:

1912 map in clubhouse...


From the 1897 Chicago Sun...


Sean Tully also had a map of the course from the 1901 Golfers Green Book.  But the image does not appear to be hosted on his site anymore and no longer appears on the Compilation thread.  Maybe if Sean spots this thread he can repost it.

[Kalen Braley]

The picture taken of the 1912 map makes it look like there was only one par 3 on the entire course?

[Bill_McBride]

The picture taken of the 1912 map makes it look like there was only one par 3 on the entire course?

That's what it looks like.  The earlier stick routing shows short holes in both directions across the pond - where the 10th hole "Short" is today.

So the 1897 and 1912 plans both refute the suggestion of the clipping, that CBM meant Chicago to replicate the order and length of the St Andrews course.

Looking at the 1912 drawing, there is at least the spirit of St Andrews with the paired holes out and back that could have played to double greens in some cases.

[Dan Kelly]

Just posted this on the early-irrigation thread. Another twofer!

From C.B. Macdonald, "Scotland's Gift: Golf" (page 118 of the Classics of Golf edition):

"The Chicago Golf Club took possession of their 200-acre farm in 1895 and by the first of May were playing over eighteen well-laid-out holes, the length of which more or less corresponded with the length of holes in St. Andrews, Scotland, totaling about 6,200 yards. But here the resemblance ceased, for the Wheaton Farm was rich black loam and after a long drought the fairway would crack. However, the red-top grass grew luxuriantly so the fairway was usually good. On the putting-greens we had the finest bent grasses. Water was piped to all the putting-greens guaranteeing at all times an excellent putting surface. I think the Chicago Golf Club was the first club in America, if not in the golfing world, to water their eighteen greens with water piped from a central plant."

[RSLivingston_III]

Bill has it about right.
Downers Grove was the first location of the club, 1892, 9 holes. The club then moved to Wheaton to expand to 18 holes.
CBM seems to be credited with laying out the Downers Grove course.

Not relavent to the thread, but a gutty era event is planned at the DG course this summer.

[Adam Clayman]

It appears to me the author's intent was to imply and confirm that this was the 1st 18 hole course built in the USA. His hyperbole extends to him using " same length ".  I doubt you could hold the writer to being exactly accurate on the yardages. This type of historical inaccuracies in old newspaper articles appears to become more commonplace, the more people post them.

I find the use of the word "Links" several times to illustrate the writers novitiate status on all things golf. Again, allowing him license to hyperbolize what reads as an advertisement for CBM.

[Dan Kelly]

It appears to me the author's intent was to imply and confirm that this was the 1st 18 hole course built in the USA. His hyperbole extends to him using " same length ".  I doubt you could hold the writer to being exactly accurate on the yardages. This type of historical inaccuracies in old newspaper articles appears to become more commonplace, the more people post them.

ADAM -- Did you READ what I just posted, two posts above yours?

Dan

[Bill_McBride]

Don't forget the author of the clipping said "order" as well as "length."

[Dan Moore]

I don't think there is any question Macdonald tried to replicate the Old Course in Wheaton.  It was not an exact copy however in terms of hole order or distances of holes.  And of course it did not have any natural hazards akin to the undulations of the Old Course.  There is some evidence that the original 1895 Wheaton layout was substantially modified prior to the 1896 season.  James Foulis was on board by then and would have been primarily responsible for building the greens and hazards.  Darwin, when he visited Wheaton in 1913, commended the elaborate bunkering of the course.  You can see that the course was modified in the Shephard's Crook portion of the course between the 1897 routing and 1912 map by eliminating back to back par 3's over the pond where the course reverses direction and turns back on itself.  The 10th hole today is essentially the same hole as existed in 1897 as the 9th hole, albeit with an incredible Seth Raynor green.  Also 1, 17 and 18 are retained on today's course.  Neither 17 or 18 bear any resemblence to the 17th (the current 2nd is the road hole on the Raynor course) or 18th at the Old Course though you can see a reference to a water hazard crossing the 1st and 18th fairway on the 1897 map like the Swilcan burn.  There is also some evidence that they played the course in both directions in the early years just like the Old Course was played when Macdonald was there in the 1870's.   By the late teens Macdonald was referring the the Course in Wheaton as a very bad course that needed updating, hence his recommendation that the club bring in Raynor.   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill Great post, but you should really take a hard look at yourself for getting 43 pages into that mess.

[Adam Clayman]

Dan. My point was to the author of the news clipping. I understood from your quoting CBM there was no similarity save for number of holes. Are you defending this journalists slant?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill Great post, but you should really take a hard look at yourself for getting 43 pages into that mess.

No problems, Tiger, that's the first time I opened the thread.

I also enjoy NASCAR and hockey for the wrecks and fights! 

[Bill Brightly]

The picture taken of the 1912 map makes it look like there was only one par 3 on the entire course?

Holes 9 and 10 are par 3's.

[Kalen Braley]

The picture taken of the 1912 map makes it look like there was only one par 3 on the entire course?

Holes 9 and 10 are par 3's.

Thanks for the clarification Bill,

Looks like its a driver for most!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()