Butler National (w/ pictures)

[Sean Leary]

I have never seen any pics of Butler before, but it isn't what I pictured in my mind. Funny how that goes.

[Sean_A]

The thing that stands out the most for me is the similarity of raised greens.  Damn near every green is raised from the land 10 yards short of it and at a similar height.  I am assuming there are serious drainage issues for this sort of repetitve design to have much merit.

Thanks for the tour George.

Ciao

[George Freeman]

I have never seen any pics of Butler before, but it isn't what I pictured in my mind. Funny how that goes.

Sean, what had you pictured?

[PCCraig]

The thing that stands out the most for me is the similarity of raised greens.  Damn near every green is raised from the land 10 yards short of it and at a similar height.  I am assuming there are serious drainage issues for this sort of repetitve design to have much merit.

Thanks for the tour George.

Ciao

There are serious drainage issues. A Western Open one year was played on 9 holes of Butler and 9 holes of nextdoor neighbor Oak Brook GC after terrible flooding closed nine holes at Butler.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have never seen any pics of Butler before, but it isn't what I pictured in my mind. Funny how that goes.

These pictures don't look like Butler.  They look like April.

[Phil McDade]

I can see why others suggest this could be an immediate US Open-worthy course without doing much of anything to change it.

Surprised at the relative lack of trees; that's my chief impression from these pics. Maybe the summer leaves make it look tighter, but the corridors look plenty wide.

The angles of attack, off the tee and into the greens, and the green angling, makes it look pretty unforgiving for the wayward player.

Has an interesting, almost Floridian look to it.

Thanks for the tour, George.

[George Freeman]

I have never seen any pics of Butler before, but it isn't what I pictured in my mind. Funny how that goes.

These pictures don't look like Butler.  They look like April.

Good point John.  I saw a picture of the 9th mid-summer and it looked about half as wide...

I'm sure the canopies would have an effect on the tigher holes.

[Sean_A]

The thing that stands out the most for me is the similarity of raised greens.  Damn near every green is raised from the land 10 yards short of it and at a similar height.  I am assuming there are serious drainage issues for this sort of repetitve design to have much merit.

Thanks for the tour George.

Ciao

There are serious drainage issues. A Western Open one year was played on 9 holes of Butler and 9 holes of nextdoor neighbor Oak Brook GC after terrible flooding closed nine holes at Butler.

Pat

Do you think a more aggressively shaped course would help create some distinction between green sites?  I am reminded of a gardner who said one key to a garden is to alter visual height even at the expense of prettier, better smelling plants.  That thought has stuck with me for courses.

BTW - sorry bout your Hawks - it would have been wonder if they had turned the Canucks over.

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

George, thanks for the fine pictures and tour of Butler.  I did get to play Butler, Medinah and Cog Hill one week in June around 1995.  I enjoyed all three and came away with Cog Hill being my favourite.  Maybe because I've played it more and can score better on it.

 All three look pretty different when trees have no leaves and the rough is coming out of it's dormancy.  Early spring might be the time of year to play all the old classically tree lined courses, as well it is the best time to play links in the UK, Turnberry, and Carnoustie are a bit easier when the rough is not so difficult.

Actually good courses are great to play anytime you can!

[Dan Byrnes]

Its a stern test of golf that is for sure. I played it once but would like to do it again. Service was unmatched in my experience outside of Kinloch but done in polar extremes of formality.  Nice pictures.  Thanks for posting.

Dan

[jonathan_becker]

When I caddied at Butler for a summer, it was amazing how the members didn't really get discouraged with the difficulty of the course.  They knew it was hard, they knew it was gonna kick their ass, and they didn't even try to pretend that they were gonna play well.  The best play from a guest that I saw was a lefty from Exmoor that shot 76.  He played great.

Most guys picked up on half the holes and were mainly out there to enjoy the club and just have a good time.  Most everyone plays quick and as a caddy it's a great place to loop.

[jonathan_becker]

George,

Good work on the photos.   In all the loops I had at Butler, I never saw one photo snapped by anyone. 

[Jim Tang]

George -

Thanks for sharing the pictures.  I've been on the grounds a few times but have never played Butler.  I'm hoping to get out there this summer.  What I remember about Butler is the par 5's have significant bend in them, making it rather difficult to go at them in two.  Am I correct in saying this?

[Tim_Cronin]

Butler National is, without question, the most difficult course in Chicago. As Ryan Potts noted, you can get on the bogey train on Medinah No. 3 (and I'd add Cog Hill No. 4 for that), but Butler can throw an 8 at you faster than you can think. The greens are small but oh-so subtly sectioned, the bunkers are unforgiving, the water is sneaky (the narrow creeks behind No. 11 and 18, as was shown), and while only No. 9 really brings trees into play (especially since the big oak on the 18th came down), the fairways aren't all that wide.

The USGA would bring an Open there in a second if the club was co-ed. And it will be someday, methinks. (There's plenty of room for tents on the polo field and the adjacent public Oak Brook Golf Course, and a deal could be made to shuttle fans in from nearby parking, maybe even the shopping center.)

The problem is the flooding. Butler's part of the designated Salt Creek flood plain, and while the 1987 flood, which forced the use of nine holes on Oak Brook to go with nine from Butler, is the most famous, the flooding happens more now than it used to, because the area to the north is more built up. An extensive pump system is used to control the release of water from Butler downstream to prevent more flooding to the south. And Butler (and OBGC) thus gets the worst of it. Lord knows what would happen if there were deluges within two weeks of a U.S. Open.

[JR Potts]

Tim:  Ed Sherman seems to share your belief that at some time soon, Butler will admit women. Sherman has been writing this for years, almost like clockwork.

Based on everyone I've ever know there, there isn't a shred of basis for that belief.

If this is just a personal wish, it's be nice if it were reported as such. Wouldn't you agree?

Shivas, I agree more with your perspective than Ed's.  0 percent chance in the next 15 years IMO.

[Jud_T]

The course is too hard for 90% of male golfers, what the hell do they need women for?  Name 2 women in Chicago who could both afford it and break 90 out there.

[Adam Clayman]

The course is too hard for 90% of male golfers, what the hell do they need women for?  Name 2 women in Chicago who could both afford it and break 90 out there.

Jud,  Exactly! Why not allow them, they won't play there much. If the club cares not about hosting, and I can see that, with a 6 month season (if that) why would you want to give up your course for any length of time?

To me, Butler is a product of the deviant road gca took, almost immediately after CBM introduced CGC to the scene. Dictated architecture.

Difficulty floats a lot of people's boat, and that's the Big World theory in a nutshell. As they use to say in Yiddish "Sie geh gesund".

Shel. Thanks for the correction. Just one question, do you have any ship's manifest or paternity tests to back up that claim?  

[David Whitmer]

Butler is a treat to play. The experience is fantastic; what a great way to spend 5 or 6 hours. It is one of the toughest golf courses I have ever played. As Tim said, you can make a high number any time. I am a 2 handicap, and when I played there I was 2-over par after 7 holes. I pushed my tee balls on #8 and #9, made 2 double bogeys, and just like that turned a 38 into a 42. On the back I was even par after 16, and finished double-triple, turning a 35 into a 40. Very easy to do there.

Quick story about Butler's service: my buddy lives in Winnetka and belongs to Skokie. I stayed at his place overnight, and we drove to Butler early one morning to play (with traffic it took about 45 minutes to get there), getting there about 7:45. Once we got to Butler he realized he had his wife's car key (the only key), and she was driving out of town at 10:00. As a staff member was showing us around, my buddy said he had to leave to drive the key back to his house for his wife to use. The staff member said no way was my buddy leaving, that someone from Butler would take the key. "That's very nice," said my buddy, "but I live 45 minutes away." "No problem," said the staff member. "Just write your address down, and we'll get it to your wife by 10:00." That was very impressive; made the experience that much better.

[JMEvensky]

 As they use to say in Yiddish "Sie geh gesund".

When did they stop?

[George Freeman]

George -

Thanks for sharing the pictures.  I've been on the grounds a few times but have never played Butler.  I'm hoping to get out there this summer.  What I remember about Butler is the par 5's have significant bend in them, making it rather difficult to go at them in two.  Am I correct in saying this?

Jim - You are correct.  All three par 5s have at least one bend in them, making getting home in two almost impossible.  The 2nd is a double dogleg, first slightly left and then back to the right.  I suppose if  you bomb a drive and can then launch a 200 yd club up over the trees at the corner, you could get home in two.  And you would have to hit absolute bombs at 7 and 15 to have a chance to get home in two.  At 7 you need the length to even get a look at the green.  At 15, you would need to go up and over the trees on the inside of the dogleg to shorten the hole, unless you can carry a three wood close to 300 yds.

Many of the par 4s have similar angle issues as well.  If you're not on the right side, you can easily get blocked out.

[jonathan_becker]

George,

Do you have a shot to the right of 4 tee?  Are all the trees still over there?  Other than 18, 4 seemed to play the toughest for everyone.  Hell, they're all tough

[George Freeman]

George, you would be shocked at how the pros used to play those par 5s when they came to town.  #7?  Almost nobody.  But the others were routinely reached in two, particularly #2 and 12, back when 12 was a par 5.  

Yeah, I would have thought #2 was probably the best opportunity to reach in two.  I'm sure a few of the bombers on the PGA could reach #7 and #15 from the tips in the right conditions...

[George Freeman]

George,

Do you have a shot to the right of 4 tee?  Are all the trees still over there?  Other than 18, 4 seemed to play the toughest for everyone.  Hell, they're all tough

Jonathan,

I'm not too sure as I was on the left side of the fairway short of the first trap.  I think if you got it out there far enough, you could have a shot.  I actually didn't think #4 was that bad, although I did hit one of my best drives of the day there...

[Tim_Cronin]

Shivas, I say someday. Ed Sherman says some time soon. I'm thinking 20 years, depending on who among the membership is no longer with us at that time. Some want to go co-ed, some want a tournament and will go co-ed only for that reason, many don't want women or the bother associated with a tournament. Personally, it doesn't matter to me. If we're choosing unobtainable Open sites, I'd rather see an Open at San Francisco GC!

[JR Potts]

Long hitters can certainly get to #2.  In fact, I think #2 is the only birdie hole on the course.

#7 is almost totally unreachable in two....but I heard that JB Holmes got there in two.

#15 can be reached in two for the next 5-10 years.  Problem is, you need to hit it over the trees to the right of the tee and down the 14th fairway.  From that location, you have about 235 in.