Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

It took me a minute to realize it was you who had posted the question.  Was it a rhetorical question?  Haven't seen much of you here lately.  You have been missed.

[Ryan Farrow]

Brian posted a few times, but not much, if any response..... hard to keep it up if nobody cares to discuss anything.... ( I know our stuff is in China, but if it was totally lame and not worth putting up for discussion, I would be a lot quieter on here.)

I still don't understand how some threads take off and others just wither and wilt in mere seconds.


I remember a thousand posts on the GCA armchair architects contest. We do one in China for an all expense paid trip for you and 3 friends and nobody seems to care.... well some do, but I thought the response would have been a little more.... oh well.




Why have they stopped posting?

Main thing has to be a lack of variety from the posters.... most responses are just too..... expected.... not too mention the "love fest" with a certain few architects.... which is understandable because they are great, talented architects.... but the endless fawning  sets off some people.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

It's very difficult to get much feedback on a thread if no one goes to play the course and offer a first-hand report.  Pictures are more likely to generate discussion here if somebody takes a negative view -- if everyone agrees, "Great pictures!", a thread will die pretty quickly.

Undoubtedly, there are a handful of architects whose work always generates more discussion -- pro or con -- because people have seen enough of their work to become fans [or detractors -- what really generates discussion is when you have both].  But, even when I bring up my latest project, 3/4 of the comments are about how it compares to other courses I've done -- the discussion is pretty meaningless until people go and see it for themselves.  [P.S. to all who I promised photos ... I tried last week, but with the sand blowing around and no water running yet, I didn't get much worth posting.]

If I'd been paying attention, I would have entered your architect contest.  A free trip to Hainan would always be handy.

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps they tired of hanging out at a party where everybody's snorting Doak.

Bogey

[John Kavanaugh]

I still don't understand how some threads take off and others just wither and wilt in mere seconds.

Ryan, it takes work to keep a thread going.  My threads die when I choose to let them.

[John_Conley]

Add Mike Dasher to the list. 

[Jerry Kluger]

I will be interested to see how Jim Engh's new course is Nebraska is received by this group.  My recollection is that there was a great deal of negative comments about his other courses which I feel is undeserved and I would guess is the reason why he chose to no longer participate.  We should carefully read our posts before they are put up so we can see if our comments are fair and objective when commenting about a course. 

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan:

It's very difficult to get much feedback on a thread if no one goes to play the course and offer a first-hand report.  Pictures are more likely to generate discussion here if somebody takes a negative view -- if everyone agrees, "Great pictures!", a thread will die pretty quickly.

Undoubtedly, there are a handful of architects whose work always generates more discussion -- pro or con -- because people have seen enough of their work to become fans [or detractors -- what really generates discussion is when you have both].  But, even when I bring up my latest project, 3/4 of the comments are about how it compares to other courses I've done -- the discussion is pretty meaningless until people go and see it for themselves.  [P.S. to all who I promised photos ... I tried last week, but with the sand blowing around and no water running yet, I didn't get much worth posting.]

If I'd been paying attention, I would have entered your architect contest.  A free trip to Hainan would always be handy.

Tom, you have 3 days to get something in!

We were really hoping that some architects would enter.... and honestly we are just looking for some really fun golf holes. There are so many off the wall ideas, that the longer this went on, we realized could make some really interesting golf.... just looking for something we haven't thought of.... or a unique way to make a dragon or panda bear hole.




It seems there is a science to the life of threads..... and John Kavanaugh has the answer... while the rest of us are just trying to get by.

[Dan Kelly]

I would think it would take a certain strength of ego (I'm struggling to say what I mean here; that's not exactly what I mean) to spend a lot of time at a site that regularly asks questions such as "Which living golf course architect is most worth traveling for?" -- knowing that, no matter how hard one works at it, and no matter how good one's work, there's little chance of seeing one's name mentioned in that thread.

Who needs that?

[John Kavanaugh]

I will be interested to see how Jim Engh's new course is Nebraska is received by this group.  My recollection is that there was a great deal of negative comments about his other courses which I feel is undeserved and I would guess is the reason why he chose to no longer participate.  We should carefully read our posts before they are put up so we can see if our comments are fair and objective when commenting about a course. 

That is why I am playing Awarii Dunes on June 1st.  I like to know exactly what the defibrillators on this site will say before I have to take the trouble to read it. 

The tread destroying Engh was deleted.  I will give the guys credit for at least not talking behind his back.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: I will be interested in what you think of the course as I will be out that way in August and might have to choose between Prairie Club and Awarii.  I don't see any valid reason for anyone to try and destroy an architect - i think Ran sets the standards by his words and actions which would never include a public posting where he anything less than a gentleman.  IMO being nasty detracts from one's credibility.

[Bill_McBride]

I recall criticism of some aspects of Jim Engh's courses, but "destroyed" seems awfully strong.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK: I will be interested in what you think of the course as I will be out that way in August and might have to choose between Prairie Club and Awarii.  I don't see any valid reason for anyone to try and destroy an architect - i think Ran sets the standards by his words and actions which would never include a public posting where he anything less than a gentleman.  IMO being nasty detracts from one's credibility.

Jerry,

The stay and play deal at Awarii has me sold.  I also love the location of Kearney as it was where I would stay the night anyway on road trips to Dismal.  The Prairie Club charges too much for me considering it is public.  I have toured all 46 holes at the Prairie Club but have yet to hit a ball there.  note:  I have also never played Shadow Creek or Pebble Beach because of the cost so take that as you may.

[John Kavanaugh]

I recall criticism of some aspects of Jim Engh's courses, but "destroyed" seems awfully strong.

Considering nary a word of The Creek Club has been spoken since, destroyed is apropoa.

There was a time when so many courses were being built the hawkmasters could choose their pray and still feed on the untouched.  Now the poor bastards have such few places to go the only way to fill their bellies to to keep their mouths shut. 

[George Pazin]

Chris forgot an architect/owner in Ireland.

Jim Engh wasn't treated any differently than anyone else on here. I've seen Tom, Mike, Ian, Jeff, and certainly Kelly, to name just a few, questioned every bit as directly.

I'd agree with Tom that you are missed, Paul, but I don't want to be accused of snorting Tom D...

[Tim Nugent]

Paul, it maybe that some feel uncomfortable in this medium. Others may just have too thin of a skin.  I do remember after my first post John Kavanaugh responding with "who are you and why should we care?"  Luckily, Jeff Brauer jumped in or I might have just said "screw this".  (and then to find out that John's brother Ken is a fellow ASGCA Member LOL).  Also, around that time there seemed to be anti-ASGCA sentiment (as if we have anything in common with one another outside our Ross Plaid jackets and we all make our living doing the same thing) and that might has dissuaded some.

What kept me involved was, under all the petty aurguments, there were people who truely were in search of information about courses, design, and construction that I could share. And, in return, I can gleen a better insight as to how the non-architect sees the golf world.  An added benefit is what I have learned from many of the historians and players of clubs that I have never had the opportunity to visit firsthand.  I can understand why some don't want their views published but I also feel it is a shame.  The more we can educate each other, the greater understanding we will all garner.

And who knows, maybe someday, someone will actually like something I've done.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Good to see David Moriarity now telling us he knows who Jim Engh "friends" are, that they "essentially set him up" and of course, were "pretending for so long that he was something that he really wasn't. "  I guess David seer powers don't just apply to the olden days!
...

Well, in actuality, misguided supporters would be a better description than friends. With friends like those that twisted the truth so badly, who needs enemies.

[DMoriarty]

...
Good to see David Moriarity now telling us he knows who Jim Engh "friends" are, that they "essentially set him up" and of course, were "pretending for so long that he was something that he really wasn't. "  I guess David seer powers don't just apply to the olden days!
...

Well, in actuality, misguided supporters would be a better description than friends. With friends like those that twisted the truth so badly, who needs enemies.

Just my luck.  Ran finally gets rid of one stalker and, like a pesky wart that keeps coming back, another seems to be growing in its place.  This one can't help trying to take shots at me even when he agrees with me!

The "friends" to whom I refer were self-identifying and I do think they did him a disservice long mischaracterizing his work.   Like Garland says, with friends (or "misguided supporters") like those . . .

[Kalen Braley]

I'll offer up this thread as Exhibit A:

Matt starts an otherwise harmless thread on why he liked the 3 closing holes at Lakota, and a bunch of Engh haters jump in who have never set foot on the property, much less played it...and start ripping it to shreds.  Meanwhile the majority of others like Andy and myself who have played it concur with Matt's assessment in general, and we're verbally dressed down and labeled ""Enghophytes".

As for someone who would go about assaulting a course they have never even played, and assaulting those who have....I can only guess they have an axe to grind!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41322.35.html

[John Kavanaugh]

I'll offer up this thread as Exhibit A:

Matt starts an otherwise harmless thread on why he liked the 3 closing holes at Lakota, and a bunch of Engh haters jump in who have never set foot on the property, much less played it...and start ripping it to shreds.  Meanwhile the majority of others like Andy and myself who have played it concur with Matt's assessment in general, and we're verbally dressed down and labeled ""Enghophytes".

As for someone who would go about assaulting a course they have never even played, and assaulting those who have....I can only guess they have an axe to grind!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41322.35.html

I am going to say this before I read the link to the thread.  The haters are Golfweek raters who are upset with the love Engh gets from Digest.  It is a common theme that they learn right after making smores at rater camp.  This years casualty was The Alotian.

Now lets take a looks see to tell if I am wrong.

[DMoriarty]

Not sure why Kalen linked to the second page of that thread.  Here is the first page:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41322.0.html

I recall that thread.  There were a number of questions raised about Matt's description of a few of the holes, most of which were not answered.    Do we really have to play a course before we can raise questions about another's description of  it?   Who knew?

Here was my closing comment to Kalen in that thread and I think it applies here as there:

"Kalen,  If you are so thin skinned so as to take offense to anything in this thread,  then perhaps  you need to grow up some.   There is an interesting conversation going on but you are so busy trying to take offense that you have completely missed it.  Too bad because you might have had something to offer.  Why not take your own advice and stick to discussing architecture?"

Anyone at all interested should really look at the example Kalen brings up of the horrible treatment Mr. Engh has received.  I think it had some pretty good potential as a thread, but it was unfortunately sidetracked by Kalen making the same claim there as here.    

[John Kavanaugh]

I was wrong.  I don't care if he is a rater, David is not driven by petty campfire agendas.  Perhaps I should read a thread next time before I comment.

[JMEvensky]

I'll offer up this thread as Exhibit A:

Matt starts an otherwise harmless thread on why he liked the 3 closing holes at Lakota, and a bunch of Engh haters jump in who have never set foot on the property, much less played it...and start ripping it to shreds.  Meanwhile the majority of others like Andy and myself who have played it concur with Matt's assessment in general, and we're verbally dressed down and labeled ""Enghophytes".

As for someone who would go about assaulting a course they have never even played, and assaulting those who have....I can only guess they have an axe to grind!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41322.35.html

Thanks for finding this,it's an interesting read.

I notice another shot at CPC--just kidding,again.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

The gig is up for you, you've been exposed as a two bit hack.

Although you claim to the "bearer of architectual questions" everyone knows what you are.  We have dozens and dozens and dozens of course reviews that go up on this site every year.  Yet for some odd reason, the only ones you choose to jump in on are if its an Engh course.  You did it on this one, and you did the same on the Black Rock thread.

Everyone sees you for Engh hater that you are, so you can stop pretending to be the innocent liberator of the truth....because no one is listening to you except Big Bird.

P.S.  My bad, I almost forgot about all the contrarian drivel you bring to the Merion /NGLA threads as well. 

[Charlie Goerges]

...destroyed is apropoa.

Is this some sort of veiled criticism of their turf cultivation practices?